Washington Redskins History with Mike Richman: Joe Gibbs, Sonny Jurgensen & the Name Debate

Jack Moore: Welcome to another edition of More to Consider. All of you that listen to my shows know that I'm a huge Washington Redskin fan. I grew up 70 miles from the city, started going first game DC Stadium. I was at the first game when it was RFK Stadium. So if you're a Redskin fan, as big a nut as I am about the team, there are people you know. And one person that everyone that loves the team knows is Mike Richmond. So I have on Mike Richmond today. And on October 20, yesterday, In 2026, Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia was released. It's his latest book on the history of the franchise. It began in Boston in 1932 as the Boston Braves, became the Boston Redskins onto being the Washington Redskins. You know the rest of the story on that. Wanna have a or give out a big shout out to Kirk Buckner with Not in the Hall of Fame dot com. I met Mike through him. Kirk is a guy that grew up in Canada, is now living in Seattle, Washington, and he became really interested in there wasn't a United States Sports Hall of Fame, which he started, and he was very interested in why some people are not in the Hall of Fame, something I think Mike and I are gonna also talk about with the Washington Redskins. Michael, how are you today, sir?

Mike Richman: Doing well, Jack. Very excited to be on your show. I mean I I've heard a lot of good things about you and

Jack Moore: Very.

Mike Richman: I know we're we're gonna have a great conversation.

Jack Moore: I believe that too, sir. And you know, again, I've known you from afar because when you did Redskin Chronicles and a lot of NFL films, when it comes up to the Washington Redskins, you're the person the go to person as the historian. So let me start with why the Washington Redskins? What's your history that you became a fan and I know you're a journalist, but but why your study of the Washington Redskins to the extent that you have?

Mike Richman: Yeah, sure. So I grew up in the Washington area, originally lived in in Prince George's County, Maryland. my family moved down from New York City in the sixties, and then we we moved to Montgomery County in the late sixties and then George Allen came here to coach the Redskins in seventy one, and that's when I truly became a Redskins fanatic. my father took me to a game or two in the sixties. I didn't really r I don't rem really remember much from then. But when when Allen came here, I that's when I really became hooked on the team. he he turned them into a a great, great team that hadn't done anything for like a quarter century. And they went to five, they had five playoff appearances during his coaching era. they won two playoff games, both of which I went to in the postseason of the nineteen seventy two season, beat the Green Bay Packers in the first round. Then they they despised Dallas Cowboys in the NFC Championship game and I was at both games and I'll never forget that. And and then they they went to Super Bowl seven after that, losing to the Miami Dolphins. That was a great era to to root for the team. And then of course I I was around pulling for the Redskins during the Joe Gibbs one era, when they went to had four Super Bowl appearances and they were the the toast of Washington and one of the elite teams in the NFL. And Also something that intersected with my interest in in the Redskins is my interest in in writing. I mean, I at an early age I became a pretty good writer and also had a tremendous interest in history. My mom took me to so many different museums in the Washington area. So all of those interests kind of came together and I in the sixth grade I wrote a paper called The Amateur Who Played Like a Pro. who it was about a star football player at Ohio State who later starred in the Rose Bowl against US C and at the time, this was in the early seventies. I mean that was a big deal in college football where the Big Ten would play the Pac Ten in the Rose Bowl and Big Ten winner play the Pac Ten winner in the Rose Bowl. And so wrote for my high school paper, wrote for my college paper at the University of Maryland. So, you know, you combined all those interests and likings and that's how I sort of And then later and you know embarked on my literary career writing books about the Redskins. My first book was the Redskins Encyclopedia, published in 2007, then the Washington Redskins Football Vault in 2010, Joe Gibbs and an Enduring Legacy in 2015, and George Allen of Football Life, 2023. And now my latest literary accomplishment, like you said, is the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders. It's the most comprehensive account of the history of the team. Nobody's ever written anything to this extent about the franchise. And I cover actually go going all the way back to the nineteen twenties when the founder of the team, George Preston Marshall, conceived of the idea. He owned a basketball team in Washington called the Palace Big Five, named after his palace laundry. And then he he met George Hallison Chicago Bears owner and also a owner of a team in that basketball league, and Joe Carr, who was the commissioner of the NFL and also was the commissioner of that basketball league, and they influenced him to buy into a NFL franchise, which he did. he bought a defunct franchise in Newark, New Jersey and relocated it to Boston. Because at the time, the NFL was encouraging these new owners to relocate in larger markets. The NFL was mostly in smaller markets. They wanted to get into larger markets to increase their visibility and popularity. And Marshall was the perfect person to do it. I mean, he was you know, so entertainment conscious. He and and very influential in league meetings and among other owners too. entertainment wise, he started the first true radio network in the NFL, spread all through the East Coast, but primarily in the South. The Redskins became known as the team of the South. he started the first True marching band in the NFL and the first fight song, Hail to the Redskins, both of which are recognized by the Pro Football Hall of Fame as the first of their kind. he had you know, band he had you know National Symphony Orchestra at halftime playing it at his home games. He had Santa Claus parachuting down. he he wanted to attract as many people as he could, not only men, but he wanted women to come to the games as well. His belief was if the women come, their men will follow. So and he was very influential in league meetings, like I said. I mean he he was key to launching some some rules, rule changes that really made the ent the league much more entertaining and much much more pass oriented. It was primarily a run oriented league for so many years, but he made it easier to pass the ball. Like he his idea was to have a rule where a quarterback could throw the ball From anywhere behind the line of scrimmage. previously it was the quarterback could not be more than five yards behind the line of scrimmage to do so. He brought the hash marks closer to the middle of the field. there were there were other steps that he took with in in collaboration with Hallis. He also was the idea behind the college all star game and the NFL, NFL college the NFL champion playing the college all stars. That was his idea too. so yeah, he was he was very instrumental in the in the growth of the league. So with all those I interests of mine and my literary interests, writing interests as well, that's how I became involved in in writing books on the Redskins. And I you know, I I'm I want to uphold the history and tradition of the team. I mean, I think it's very important. I mean, many of these guys, I mean, even guys from the early in the Joe Gibbs glory period. I mean, they're unfortunately they're passing away. Monty Coleman just died

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: at the age of sixty eight. Great linebacker in the Joe Gibbs era. So but somebody needs to to maintain the history of the team and make sure that they're these guys are not forgotten. And I'm trying to do that.

Jack Moore: Yeah, you know, everything you're just saying about it, it one of the things leading into this sort of a is kind of an outline of what we're gonna cover, when you really think about it in this eighty plus years of the franchise, ninety plus years of the franchise, has it got to ninety? No. Yeah, it has gotten to ninety, ninety plus years. You have a yeah. Right,

Mike Richman: Ninety plus years. So we're going on a h near we're near a hundred years actually.

Jack Moore: y that's exactly about the time the new stadium opens, it'll be pushing a hundred. So you have a Martial era. George Preston Marshall error, which is quite a bit of the team history. Then Edward Bennett Williams runs into the operation of it. Jack Kent Cook becomes the owner. And then from him to Snyder and to where we are now, that's pretty much the history of ownership. And I think that there's distinct periods in where the team, what the team became as a result. And I got to think Cook did it better than anybody, what everybody thinks Jack Kent Cook. He kind of put football people in charge of things and he let football people do their thing. And I remember distinctly in eighty-one, I'll I'll never forget it. Like Joe Gibbs just named K Who the hell's Joe Gibbs? I mean, like, who who is this guy? You know, of course we all remember the 0-5 start, but

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: I knew there was something special about him because of the way he was running the offense. And then, you know, he does the one back, he gets Riggins back on full in fold, and and and it's magical. It's It really spoiled me because I'm in that I I'm in, I think you're probably about the same. I'm in that wheelhouse of my twenties. It's the eighties. A lot of things seem kind of sexy and cool. And in that 12-year run, really 11-year run, four Super Bowls, three victories, we're in the playoffs every year except one. And or two that I can think of, but you kind of think that's the way it's ever gonna it's always gonna be. And so when Gibbs stepped down after the ninety-two season, I'm like. well, Pettibone pick it up, it'll keep going. And then it didn't. And it and it didn't on the back end of Cook's ownership. So anyway, that that's kind of this thing. When you bring up Marshall too, you bring up such a great point because I think a lot of people would agree with this. He wasn't really a football guy. He was an entertainment guy. He was married to what Corrine Griffith that was an actress, and he he wanted women in the stands. he wanted the halftime shows to be special, wants to drop Santa Claus from a helicopter. So how much do you think he was good for the team and bad for the team in his forty some odd years of owning the team?

Mike Richman: Well, early on he he was tremendous. I like I said, I mean, he was so entertainment conscious and he benefited from the fact that the Redskins won a championship their first year of coming to DC. There was only one other situation like that previously the Decatur Staleys won a won a championship. Later they became the Chicago Bears. But z they won they won a championship in their inaugural year in the nation's capital. And then they were a juggernaut in those early years in Washington, DC. They the Redskins and the Chicago Bears, those were the two powerhouses in the league. And and Marshall benefited from it. I mean, if you were a a resident of of Washington, DC at the time or the immediate surrounding area, I mean you became a Redskins fan because they were a winner and everybody loves to root for a winner. So Marshall But Marshall played on that as much as he could. I mean, he he brought a lot of people to to the stands at Griffith Stadium, with the entertainment. but he, you know, he also got great players as well. I mean, Sammy Baugh, he was he

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: drafted Sammy Baugh 1937 out of Texas Christian. He inherited some some great players too. Wayne Milner, tremendous receiver, they called the money player, future Hall of Famer. Cliff Battles, he inherited him as well. Turk Edwards, another player that that came from Boston. he inherited

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: him too. And Ray Flaherty. so I'm when I say inherited, they those guys previously played in Boston. But but Mart they all were there when when of course Marshall owned the team. But and Ray Flarity was the coach that Marshall hired in nineteen thirty six. So, and but he he's in the Hall of Fame today too, and one of the greatest coaches in Redskins history. So all that,

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: and you know, Marshall had a tremendous hand in that. But he had great players on the field as well. Then it was the post-World War II era, which was really that was his downfall and the team's downfall. he he ran the team and he did this, you know, in pre pre-World War II and through the war as well. He ran the team with an iron fist. It was basically his way or the highway, but it really, really hit the team hard in in just a negative way after World War II. they were just mediocre at best. they had some terrible teams. He went through nine coaches in the period of nineteen forty-six through nineteen sixty-one. that was a just a terrible, terrible era for the team. And it did the franchise no favors that Marshall refused to integrate the squad because

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: that the NFL had no black players in the league from like nineteen thirty-three to nineteen forty-five, which was Marshall's idea. It was an unwritten rule. It was Marshall's idea, but the other owners went along with it. so there were no but then Post World War II they started integrating the other teams did, but Marshall refused to do so. So his reluctance to integrate a squad, that was you know, ri really, really s you know, played negatively on the fortunes of the team from like nineteen fifty-nine through nineteen sixty-one, over the course of those three seasons, they lost twenty-three straight. I'm sorry, they went winless in twenty-three straight games during that period. I mean, it's a just just a Horrible, horrible period for the team. They were they were a perennial league doormat and other teams took advantage of them. Like I remember Sam Huff telling me the you know when he played for the Giants. I mean, we would see the Redskins on the schedule and we would go, check, that's a win. It was just a a really bad period for the team. Until he, you know, when he integrated the squad and obtained Bobby Mitchell and Bobby Mitchell was the the the the greatest of those players, African American players. that he acquired after the nineteen sixty one season. He also acquired John Nisby, great guard for the two time pro bowler for the Steelers. Leroy Jackson, a teammate of of Mitchell in Cleveland, he acquired him as well. Jackson was a pretty good player too. He only played two seasons for the team. so but that improved the team somewhat but they were still me no better than mediocre in the sixties. Although they had, you know, they acquired Sonny Jurgensen in a trade with the Eagles in April of sixty four. But they were an exciting team to watch though, with Jergensen at the controls and he had great receivers, future Hall of Famers and Charlie Taylor, Bobby Mitchell, and Jerry Smith, the tight end. So they w they were a very, very entertaining team to watch in the nineteen sixties. And they they filled up what was then DC Stadium, which was the stadium they moved into, brand new stadium they moved into in sixty one, later became RFK Stadium in nineteen Sixty nine. They were filling up that stadium in the sixties. 'Cause they w they were such an exciting

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: team to watch. But but it wasn't until Allen came here in seventy one that

Jack Moore: Well, that brings in the period. Yes. Well, they you do have the Vince Lombardi bump too, which I do think was was very tru was very impactful to the city and the team, but you're right. That's when I come into it. I go to my first game. And as a kid, I was all I I was really already aware that Jurgensen was this figure that would go out. So fans for people listening, Nineteen sixty-seven, he throws for three thousand seven hundred and forty seven yards, thirty-one touchdowns, and one, two, and four in the league receiving are his receivers. You know, Taylor and and Smith and Mitchell are one, two and four. So the n and he sets

Mike Richman: There was nothing like that in the league.

Jack Moore: a record? No. No. No, and it's and so but if you were a fan

Mike Richman: I and until the like until the San Diego Chargers under Dan Fa San Diego Chargers under Dan

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: Faust in the nineteen eighty. We we I mean, the league had never seen anything so spectacular in terms of that offensive explosion. And Jurgensen was the was the leader of that and so but but defensively they they didn't have much of a defense. I mean they had a few named players and Chris Hamburger and

Jack Moore: No. Right.

Mike Richman: and Huff, but Huff was in his latter years. I mean he wasn't really doing much that. Right.

Jack Moore: was on the back end back end of his career, yeah. Yeah

Mike Richman: Right, but

Jack Moore: it

Mike Richman: so it was the offense that was carrying the team.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and that it was just it really was true. And I've heard Jurgensen say it in interviews. Everything was thirty-eight to thirty-five, and they were gonna lose. And you know, I don't care how many points they put up. So it was frustrating to watch. And when Lombardi comes in, they're seven, five, and two, they break a streak of fifteen years where they hadn't had a winning seat. And then that's a season where they win half the games, but they have two ties. There was a marked difference. But I remember as a kid when Washington opened up the season in seventy-one. So that year I was nine. And I remember just watching that first game with Allen and I went, that's a different brand of football. I just it's different. Special teams were so much better. Defense was so much better. And I know you've seen the interview with Riggins, where Riggins was like, I wonder what Allen could have been if he decided to play with all three parts, not just special teams and defense. Cause he did seem To sort of put a governor on, you know, on the offense. And I love Billy Kelmer. I appreciate what a friend he was to Jergensen in the end and how they became they were close through the years. But I always wondered if he'd unleash Jergensen with that defense. Of course, Sonny was on the back end of his career and got hurt a lot. You know, and he beats the Dolphins in seventy-four when they're still world champions, so it makes you wonder with the Super Bowl. have been different if Jurgensen had been the quarterback and he hadn't torn his Achilles tendon. So there's a lot of what ifs in that history. But Allen definitely brought a different vision 'cause I mean it was you you remember it, it was it was a different team and it was well, they started I think the sellout streak in sixty six. I believe that was the year it started. Right, but you know yeah.

Mike Richman: Right, sixty-six was the beginning of sellers trick, yeah. But Al Allen really they they took they took a jump up in in the seventies under Allen in terms of the fact that they were one of the the best teams in the league. I mean, the the

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: fanaticism was just at another level in that era. I do want to touch on your point regarding Jergensen and and what the what if, whether Allen had you know paid more attention to him, hadn't kept him on the bench so much. So Jergensen He was the starter when Allen came here in 71. And he would he would remain the starter through

Jack Moore: Get injured the preseason game. Yep. Yep.

Mike Richman: the Allen era. I mean, Kilmer, yeah, he was a he was a really good quarterback, but Jergensen would have started over. J Jergenson, though, he was just hit with so many injuries during that four-year period that he played for Allen that but he was the I mean who wouldn't be excited to have Sonny Jergensen as your starting quarterback? And George Allen certainly was, and So, but it was the injuries that really kept him on the bench so much. Like in that 71 season, he had the preseason injury against the Dolphins, and then Kilmer came in and basically saved the season for

Jack Moore: They went five and

Mike Richman: the Reds because they they started five and that year and they went

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: to the playoffs for the first time since 1945. That was the first postseason appearance.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: So but so that's a there's that narrative that George Allen didn't like Snight Jergensen. and then Jurgensen did talk over the years that you know. There was a power struggle between the two. But I believe Jergensen, I firmly believe Jergensen would have played much, much more, if not the entire Allen era if he had stayed healthy. And and after the 74 season when Edward Bennett Williams, he wanted Allen to decide between Jergensen and Kilmer and and Allen in terms of retirement or you know, pushing one of those two out because he he said, you know, we can't afford both of these guys. So it was Allen's decision at that point to say to Sonny, listen, you know, we can't. have you on the roster anymore. But at the same time, I mean Jurgensen was was very brittle. I mean, even though he led the NFC in passing

Jack Moore: Yes, there he was.

Mike Richman: in nineteen seventy four, it was very brittle. And and, you know, to have him for further seasons, who knows how how much longer he would have lasted. He said he could have played longer in the NFL, which may have been like maybe a few games per season, maybe a seventy five, seventy six and beyond. I don't know. It's it's a it's unknown at this point. But his body

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: was really wearing down. Was it was very creaky and

Jack Moore: Well, you know, I was gonna say though, as far as that whole thing, and I actually talked and I won't name him, but I talked to a player from that era, and I that I got to know through somebody, and I know you've talked to all of them, but I remember talking to this one player, and I said, What was it like? And he said, You know, and I've heard Billy Kilmer say this, Jorgensen and Allen didn't really hit it off from the start. There just seemed to be a tension between the two of them. But he said I said, was there any tension between the players? He goes, No, we both love Billy, we both love Sonny, and they loved each other. So whoever was on the field, we were 100% behind. We didn't care who started. But when you go back and think, seventy-one, he gets thrown on the shoulder, Dolphins. He's basically out for six weeks. He tries to come back. I think it's against the Eagles. He gets injured again. He tries to make a comeback against the Cowboys, and he's just not good that day, and he's rusty. But I remember this Pat Summerall on the field in the preseason with Jurgensen and Kilmer. And he said, Alan has said, it's up to whoever does better in the summer. And he looked at Jergensen, he said, You're in the best shape I've ever seen. He goes, Nah, not since Lombardy. And I mean the a lot of the gut was gone. He looked like he was in better shape. And if I'm not mistaken, you can go back and look at the numbers. I think Jergensen completed sixty-two percent. Now, of course, he might have played some second halves against guys who were gonna be, you know, auto mechanics the next day, but he completed sixty-two percent, and I think Kilmer completed forty seven. That opening day, it's Kilmer. Then Kilmer throws three touchdowns against New England. Plays well. They have the block punt where Molinchak and Brunei can't get there close enough to the end zone to get the touchdown. And when they lose to New England, he starts Jergensen. I go to that game, 72 against the Eagles. He throws three picks in the first half. Then he gets hot. They win. And then he has the streak. He beats St. Louis. He beats Dallas. And then he gets hurt against the Giants. So you're right in the sense that. If he'd have held on and not torn his Achilles tenant, I think he was the guy. And in seventy three and seventy four, he was hurt all the time. I loved him. I won't but he was thirty-nine and forty those last two seasons. And that seventy five coming back at forty one. I mean, who did that

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: then? Nob nobody played past forty. I mean, forty was the extreme back then. So I think it would have

Mike Richman: So

Jack Moore: been difficult. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Yeah. Well yeah, that's I've tried to correct that that story, that narrative that that people found. Like they say I just like George Allen. I I just don't like the way he treated St. Jurgensen. I I always try to correct that. I mean I tre there yeah there was a a difference of philosophies between the two. I mean, Allen was

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: defensive oriented. Jergensen loved Vince Lombardi and you know he longed for an offense

Jack Moore: Right. Right.

Mike Richman: and the freedom that he had under Lombardi. But still,

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: if Jergensen had remained healthy, who knows how great that and and if he had played like he did in the sixties, who knows how how great that team. would have been. Now I also want to say that, and I interviewed Billy Kilmer about this. He said that seventy-two season, Sonny was in the best shape that he had ever seen him in. And he was playing

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike Richman: great ball. And Billy Kilmer told me, quote, I probably would not have seen the field again if Sonny had remained healthy that year. And Kilmer

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: told me in the interview, he wishes he had had contact with Sonny during the Super Bowl because It was the the Redskins and and s and Billy said it was primarily Ted Marchabrotto, the offensive coordinator. It was his decision to make sure that Sonny was not with any of the players during the game and that he was relegated to one of the boxes at the LA Coliseum during the game.

Jack Moore: They put it yeah, they him in a luxury box by himself. Jergensen talked about that. He said, I wanted to help Billy and be on the headsets or whatever, but they wouldn't let me go near it. And, you know.

Mike Richman: But Billy told me there was it wasn't it wasn't necessarily George Allen. It was it was Ted Marchabroda. R

Jack Moore: It was the march of Rhoda. Yeah.

Mike Richman: you said it was Ted Marchabroda. But he was in a box by himself and he didn't have any contact with the players. So Kilmer told me that he wishes he had had contact with with Sonny because he Sonny would have given him some tips on how to diagnose the Dolphus defense, which I think was to be had that day. I don't think they were in any great shakes, but I think that it really would have helped. And who knows what have happened if Sonny had started that game, which

Jack Moore: That well, yeah.

Mike Richman: You and Sonny told the story over the years that Don Schuller approached him before the game started and said, you know, it would have been a different game if you were playing. So it would be a different game if you were playing. So

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: Sonny, I mean, there's a lot of what-ifs there, but basically if Sonny had remained healthy that season, the Redskins, they finished eleven and three. They may have even been better than that, record wise. And they you know, who knows if they had ended up meeting the Dolphins in Super Bowl seven. they likely would have beaten them. I don't think the Dolphins were any great team that day. I mean the the Redskins

Jack Moore: I don't think they were either.

Mike Richman: really with all the breaks going against the Redskins that day, there was a game in the last two minutes. And George Allen with special teams, you know, he figured out a way to do it with Mike Bass returning that it wasn't a block field goal by the way. It was the ball hit the the back of a Dolphins helmet. Gary Premier's kick.

Jack Moore: Yeah, I saw that on film. Yeah, I saw that on film a few months ago. They're like, after all the speculation, did Ted Vactor get it? Did Ron McDowell like, No, he actually kicked it in the rear end of his own lineman, like it went off one of his own players.

Mike Richman: He kicked it in. Well, Ted Vactor did say to me in an interview that he he believes he tipped the ball as he was flying through there. So

Jack Moore: He blocked it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: maybe, maybe his tip caused the ball to hit the the

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: helmet of Bob Hines, who was the dolphin center. But

Jack Moore: Okay.

Mike Richman: but anyway, it was it was not a block as in somebody didn't re at the line didn't reach his his hand up and block the kick. It wasn't that type

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: of block. If Vactor

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: could have tipped the ball as he was flying through, which was a big George Allen thing. I mean he he really had that technique down in terms of blocking kicks that way where the the the player would come from the corner and swing around and block the kick, which was was

Jack Moore: Well, Bill Malenchat kept a job. I mean, he was out of football and back because he blocked so many punts. I mean, that guy was he was like a 13-team wide receiver with Detroit, whatever comes to Washington, becomes a special team guy. So yeah, it was, you know, Rusty Tillman, some of the Pete Wysaki, some of the guys that we saw play in that era were great special teams players, and they made a difference. They they switched the field position and they blocked kicks and and they, you know, Ron McDowell kid, like I said, blocked a lot of kicks. All right.

Mike Richman: Right, right.

Jack Moore: So, you know, I I really wanted to talk about the Jergensen thing. You have on the Jergensen jersey. Folks, I'm wearing the Sean Taylor jersey. He never wore. It's a throwback jersey from the O two, three season that he that the Gibbs didn't wear. And in Sean Taylor's four to seven under Joe Gibbs, they didn't wear this, but Reebach made it. So so talking about Jergensen, you have a book coming out or you're working on a book. Are you not related to Sonny Jergensen in biography?

Mike Richman: Yes, I am writing a biography on Sonny. He passed away, like you said, earlier this year. So my publisher, the same publisher that is published my Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, they're publishing my biography on Sonny. And yeah, it's gonna be a great book. people are gonna read details about him that they they never knew. And so I'm really, really excited about this project. And yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm learning things that I didn't never knew about him. Like for instance Vince Lombardi, when when when Sonny played for the Eagles, played his first seven seasons for the Eagles from 57 through 63, Vince Lombardi nearly became the Eagles coach in 19 after

Jack Moore: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: the 1957 season, which was Sonny's rookie year. it so happened that Wellington Mara, the Eagles made Lombardi an offer at that point, but Wellington Mara, the the Giants owner, talked him out of it and and Lombardi remained an assistant with the Giants and Then of course, history would have. They played in that fifty-eight NFL championship game against the Colts. And then after that he became the Packers coach. But he he was about to become the Eagles coach. So it's like a what if, what if Lombardi had become Sonny's coach at that point. although I believe the the Eagles still would have gone after Norm Van Brocklin. They they signed

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: Van Brocklin at that point, because they they were really after a an experienced veteran quarterback. So they signed Van Brocklin and Sonny sat. For the three seasons under Van Brocklin, and then Van Brocklin led the Eagles to the 1960 NFL Championship, after which Sonny became the starting quarterback. So I'm covering all that. And then, of course, you know, what influenced the trade? Well, why would the Eagles trade Sonny for Norm Sneed after the 63 season? I mean, Sneed was a very good quarterback. I don't want to take that

Jack Moore: It was.

Mike Richman: away from him, but he wasn't Sonny Jurgensen. And but you know, what was behind that trade? So I'm I'm answering that question in the book.

Jack Moore: Okay, yeah, I've heard some rumors on on this so I'd I I'm really interested to hear what you say. But yeah, Norm Sneed, Virginia native, I think Newport News area, went to Wake Forest, first round pick. And he was one of those guys that got thrown right into it in sixty one, too. He was right in the fire as a starter, as a as a true rookie in a time that that didn't really happen. So

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: he'd been knocked around a few years by the time he goes to Philadelphia and Sunny comes to Washington. And I do think, as he said, you know, he's pushing thirty. He's right at his thirtieth birthday when this happens. he thought it was a new start, but he did again. Folks, if you look it up, the sixty-four through the sixty-nine when he leads the league in passing seventy is an absolute disaster. But in that time period, he put up the kind of numbers you have to think in context. It's like I've said to people, I think the most breakout amazing season any quarterback ever had was Merino in eighty four. Because to throw forty eight when the record was thirty 36 and to start going well over 4,000 yards. That just wasn't done then. It was a different league. So Merino was impactful, but Sonny in the sixties, and to some degree, Namath in the AFL throwing for 4,000 yards, that was unheard of things at the time. And I think you've even made this point. A great point that I've I've heard I it was either you or I heard somebody else that was a journalist say this, that Jurgensen was so far ahead. And it was a little bit by fate that Bobby Mitchell was a converted running back, and Charlie Taylor was a converted running back. And Bobby Mitchell said Lenny Moore was the only other guy he saw do that same kind of conversion to the to being a receiver. But Sonny was throwing pinpoint passes 30, 40 yards down the field to running backs who then ran like running backs. And it was kind of West

Mike Richman: Right. Well that was that was

Jack Moore: kind of West Coast before West Coast.

Mike Richman: way. I mean Sunny was throwing the ball a little farther downfield than we would normally think of it.

Jack Moore: No, no, no, no doubt, but no no no doubt, but because of no running game, he did kind of on some of their pass patterns, he was just kind of handing it. no, he could throw the ball deep with anybody. But but because of the

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: type of receivers they were, I mean, Charlie Taylor had so many yards after catch it was ridiculous. If he once he caught it six three, two ten,

Mike Richman: He was cause yeah, he was a great running back initially, like you said, and then he was he was converted to a a wide receiver, like like Bobby Mitchell, who was great at running with the ball. but

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: Taylor in particular, he was very, very difficult to bring down. He was so

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: big and strong. He was the prototype for what we later saw in in our monk. R Monk was just a little bigger than Charlie Taylor, but

Jack Moore: Art monk. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Mike Richman: But Charlie Taylor was a big, strong receiver. He was he

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: Charlie Taylor was very much like a lot of those receivers that we see today. I mean, size-wise.

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: he was just a great, great receiver. And and Sonny, Sonny was slinging it. You know, we had slinging Sammy. Now we had slinging Sonny Sonny. I mean, he was he had a great touch on the ball. I mean, that pass,

Jack Moore: No doubt.

Mike Richman: those balls would just float down from the sky like a like a feather. I mean, it was very, very difficult to Drop one of Sonny's passes. So nearly impossible. yeah, he was and he had great accuracy on his passes, like you know, through that thirty s had that thirty, seven hundred yard season in nineteen sixty seven. I mean, he was a quarterback the league really hadn't seen. I mean, Johnny Unitis was great in the late fifties and through the sixties as well. He didn't have the numbers though that Sonny had. statistically, I mean, Sonny was just above him. and other quarterbacks in that year as well, particularly I mean Bart Starr. I mean he Starr didn't nearly have the numbers that that Sonny had and you know and this as the saying went, Vince Lombardi made the comment in nineteen sixty nine, God, if only I had that redhead in in Green Bay, we would have declared a monopoly on the NFL. So

Jack Moore: Yeah. Never never lost the game. Yeah.

Mike Richman: yeah, it's something like that. So and by the way, that that seven five and two season in sixty nine under Lombardi, I mean that was a good Redskins team. And they may have been on the way to to being much better. Of course, nobody will know because Lombardi passed away before the 1970 season. they they may have he may have transformed them into you know, like the Green Bay Packers, what he did with them. Of course, nobody will ever know. But that was that was a great chemistry that Lombardi had with Sonny in that 69 season. And Sonny said over the years, you know, Lombardi was the greatest coach that he had among his nine NFL co head coaches. Sonny Lombardi was the greatest one, and because Lombardi let me be me. So,

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: which kind of begs the question. I mean, I think Sonny needed to conform a little bit to his coaches, though. Like in the case of George Allen, yeah, he didn't like the philosophy of George Allen or whatever, but he he still needed to conform as as best as he could to to Allen's philosophy. And I think Sonny was doing that in the 72 season.

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: Allen was letting Sonny run the team on the field. it wasn't necessarily bombs away like it was in the sixties, but but Sonny was he was having great games in that seventy two season. And I think with like I said, with him as the quarterback, that that Redskins team probably would have ended up winning the Super Bowl against the Dolphins, or whoever they played.

Jack Moore: Yeah, there's there's a famous couple things on that, and then and we'll move on to some other subjects. But yeah, I've heard Jergensen and Kelmer will say this that they when they would get together, and they again they were best friends. They would ride together and then they would honk the horn and do certain type of gestures towards people, whether they had an I like Sonny Ice Billy, and they thought it was a joke. But you know, Jergensen said Alan kind of created that. Because it did, it it created a fan store stir among the fans, but They would both kind of go together and say, What did Billy just tell you? Or what did George just tell you? And it was never quite the same. But Jergensen said

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: that was to get a rise out of people. It was to get a rise. It was to get performance out of them. And then there's the famous Jergenson told the story. Billy Kilmer gets knocked around on a play. They got the ball on like the 20 yard line and it's like third down and six or something like that. And Allen says, Go in and run a draw and we're going to kick a field goal. And he's like, Screw the draw. He audibles, or he probably called the the pass in the huddle, but he throws a touchdown pass and he goes, Alan's mad at me, won't put me back in the game. You know, and Kelmer was like, I look up and like, hell, I got to go back in, and I'm knocked around. I'm, you I'm still buzzed from the last hit I got. But he's like, he, you know, he said when he gets to the sideline, Alan's like, what was that? And he was like, when I got to the line, they said, Hey, look out for the draw. So I audible to the pass and threw the touchdown and it pissed him off. Well, I'm a coach.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: I've I coach college baseball now. And That's that thing, there's always a tension, which of course is the greatest story of all about Lawrence Taylor and Bill Parcells. They fight, they fight, and Parcell's like, Okay, Lawrence, LT, you do it your way. But the first time you screw up, we're gonna have another conversation. And he goes twelve years later they never did. That's their big joke between them. But there was a tension. Parcell wanted a structured LT. Then he realized maybe LT hair on fire might be best for everybody if we kind of you know constrain it or s some kind of way tame it. And I just think that's what Jurgensen and Allen but I do agree with you. I think in that seventy two season, Sonny was probably more octane definitely than Billy, but he was keeping

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: a lid on it enough that he was keeping them in games and well, you know, they had to come back against the Cowboys. They blew out the Cardinals and he played poorly against the Eagles, but then he got the win. And then he's out against the Giants and then, you know what Larry Brown had a hundred and ninety one yards in that game and they come back and win. But yeah, I'll always as a Sunny fan all right, so let's move on to this. Joe Gibbs gets higher. Yeah. No,

Mike Richman: Can I can I just mention something about that?

Jack Moore: absolutely.

Mike Richman: that that was in a 73 game that where that sequence took place where Alan, according

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: to the story that that somebody told over the years, Alan told call a draw audible to the past. So I want to say though, I mean, if if you don't agree, like kind of like you insinuated with you know being a coach, if you don't agree to with what the coach is saying, then then voice your opinion right there when he gives you instructions. Hey, you know. Coach, I'm going to go in a different direction if I see something differently in the defense. And then Sonny kind of made a joke o about it over the years, which I I I do think that's that those actions by Sonny contributed to the tension between the two. And right, right. Right. I

Jack Moore: No doubt. No doubt. Yeah.

Mike Richman: mean, I I I think if if Sonny had listened to instructions a little better, not only with Alan, but with his other coaches too. Like there were games There was one sequence in in a nineteen sixty-five game where he wouldn't go into the game late because they had started Dick Shiner. It was

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: Edward Bennett Williams' decision to start Dick Shiner over Jergensen, and then Jergensen was tapped later late in the game. He said, No, w why do I need to go in now? I mean,

Jack Moore: I didn't know that.

Mike Richman: you know, you you told me to sit. Yeah. So it was it was those kind

Jack Moore: I didn't know that story.

Mike Richman: of things. Yeah, that that resistance that you know, that difficult nature of Sonny that over the years, you know, that I I think that contributed to his tension with with some of the coaches that he played for.

Jack Moore: Yeah. Well one thing finally on Sunday, I I do know that well, as a matter of fact in NFL films, you know, Saban had that that that that comment about or Sable had that comment about a lot of people say why is this guy the Hall of Fame? He didn't win anything. Well he's only championships with the Eagles as a backup to Van Brocklin. And I think his record was two games under five hundred, but if I'm not mistaken, if you look at games he started under Allen, I think he was twelve and two. So in that era

Mike Richman: He was.

Jack Moore: when yeah, he was like twelve and two. So, you know, but God bless Billy Kilmer. I mean, I went the night to the game when they honored Jergensen with retiring his number. Who's there to unveil it, Billy Kelmer? I'm there the other day against the Seahawks after the death of Monty Coleman and Sonny Jergensen. And who's there for Sonny Jergensen? Billy Kilmer. I I love Billy Kilmer. He absolutely. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Billy Kilmer. Billy Kilmer was always by his side. Yeah. He was he was a he was a great I mean, I I would put him like a step above a a game managing quarterback. He was he was a r he was a good quarterback and he was the perfect

Jack Moore: He was.

Mike Richman: quarterback after Sonny retired, the perfect quarterback for Allen to have. Allen did not want to elevate Joe Thizman to the starting role, although

Jack Moore: No.

Mike Richman: Edward Bennett Williams and and March Broda, who was then the offensive coordinator, wanted him to tap Thysman as a starter. But Kilmer was the perfect quarterback for Allen. He ran his his offenses just the way Allen wanted them run. I mean, that that conservative approach. and and that Kilmer could air it out too. I mean, he had a

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: he could throw a ball beside you know, aside from the fact that his passes were sometimes wobbly because of his smaller hands. I mean, he had he had a pretty good accuracy with his passes. I mean, he threw some gorgeous passes in the NFC championship game in 1972, that twenty-six to three won over the Cowboys. I mean, that was the best game he ever played in his career. They you know, the two touchdown passes he threw

Jack Moore: Yes. Well and

Mike Richman: to Charlie Taylor, particularly a forty-five yarder in

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: the fourth quarter. I mean, that was a gorgeous pass. So, and

Jack Moore: It was.

Mike Richman: he actually he told me over the years of how Sonny helped him throw the ball better, putting more of

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: his torso into his throws. and and one of the a couple of the advantages that Sonny had with his with his ability to throw the ball, like Joe Namath, he had very big hands. He had long arms and big hands.

Jack Moore: He did. He did. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: And those are two elements for a quarterback that you want to have if if you want to have a better chance of being a great passer. And that was actually one thing that helped Sonny throw the ball behind his back, is he had very, very long arms.

Jack Moore: Well, that's a great one too. And when I was a kid and go to the games, he would come out with Lynn Haas. Whatever reason they were close and you know, the the center from Georgia, and they would come out and they would play catch before anybody. They'd have game pants on, sometimes t shirts, sometimes jersey, no pads, and they'd just come out there and run around. And Sonny would walk up the field and dribble the football. He would throw the point down at an angle into the ground and come right back up to him. And then I'd see him do the behind the back and You really and it's again, I was a child at the time, I was a young person, but w with watching him warm up in that stadium and seeing those feathered, tight spirals that he would throw, it was crazy how well he could throw a football. It just really was interesting to watch. He was special. He he was

Mike Richman: That's

Jack Moore: special with the ball.

Mike Richman: absolutely was special. I mean that spiral he had on the ball. It was a this tight spiral all the time. That ball never

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mike Richman: never wobbled in any way. And

Jack Moore: No.

Mike Richman: yeah, it was it was it was just the touch he had on his passes too. yeah, it was impossible for a receiver to drop one of his passes. so yeah, and you know, the question the I've heard the question too, why is he in the Hall of Fame? I mean, statistically number wise He was he was the best in that era, this the sixties,

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: and he was arguably the the best quarterback of that decade. So

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: yeah, but he he never did of course win anything in the postseason. He only played in one playoff game. He was on the nineteen sixty Eagles team that won a championship, but he only held for

Jack Moore: Right. Held race, that's right.

Mike Richman: play skicks and they actually he acquired the nickname the finger because he only held for for point after and and field goals.

Jack Moore: And I hate the fact he went out the way he did in that seventy-four against the Rams to go out in the end. You know, trying to do a catch up.

Mike Richman: He threw three interceptions that game.

Jack Moore: Yeah, he did. And Isaiah Robertson, of course, had the big return. So all right. that's a great era. And and we both love that era for sure. So we have

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: the Jack Pardee. He goes exactly five hundred. He has a six and ten, a ten and six, and an eight and eight, and he's out. And of course the six and ten's on the back end, and he's out. And then again, this guy, Joe Gibbs, gets named. He has the 0-5 start. They end up that season eight and eight. Then we have the strike season in eighty-two. We change the decal on the helmet slightly. You know, we loop underneath the circle. But we go into that season and we, you know, lose all these games. There's no replacements. That's eighty-seven, which I do think is kind of a stain on the organization. We've won three Super Bowls and two were in strike season. So ninety-one, we finally won one clean slate, start to finish. He had a whole season, but what do you think made Joe Gibbs so special?

Mike Richman: an offensive genius. I mean just the the the formations that he had on his offense and and his his ability to adapt number one like you mentioned earlier i mean he went to the single back offense what after that five game losing streak to start the 81 season he went to the single back offense with with riggins as the feature back riggens and joe washington were actually alternating at that point

Jack Moore: Joe Washington, right. Third down.

Mike Richman: right and then riggings took over as the feature back in 82 but And then later on in the 80s, I mean, he had the posse in Monk

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: Monk Clark and Sanders. So he his ability to to adapt. And by the way, when he when he had the posse, I mean, those patterns that they would run, they they were like they were bewildering defensive backs. I mean, nobody knew how to cover those guys. So that was the genius of Gibbs. also he he had he had a great staff and he always talked about you

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: know, you've got to surround yourself with the right people, which he has done in NASCAR as well. That's that's

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: another factor that made him a great coach. and he he acquired a lot of his offensive genius from Don Coriel. I mean Eric Coriel,

Jack Moore: No doubt.

Mike Richman: who was he assisted Coriel in San Diego and with the St. Louis Cardinals. So that that's where you know he first learned a lot of the offensive philosophy that he employed in Washington. But yeah, those are those are the factors that really went into making him a great coach. The the offensive genius mostly and his ability to adapt at halftime, make changes

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: at halftime, which we're really not seeing from from our our coach today. I mean, or or any any of the coaches in recent memory in team history. he he is the ability to adapt at halftime. He just had this genius about making changes entering the second half. And and it was in so many circumstances, it was like checkmate early into the second half when he w you know, with the po the opponents. he you know, he had them figured out and and the game was over early in the third quarter. That was that was all because of Gibbs and his staff. So Super Bowl twenty six.

Jack Moore: The Super Bowl twenty-six. Yeah, remember Giv Gaveo, the interception starting off the second half. They they had

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: some they had some keys and they're like, he jumped the route because he's like, I know exactly what Kelly's gonna do coming out, boom, and then it then it just out of reach then. I mean, I think it was seventeen nothing at halftime. Another thing that's interesting, I saw an interview Dan Patrick with a gentleman that wrote a book about the eighties and about the coaching. And it was Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs. And Bill Parcells. And this, you know, so Dan Patrick's saying, Can any of them coach today? And he goes, Joe Gibbs could coach anytime. And he goes, Why do you say that? Because he goes, Because he was the perfect players coach. He had discipline, but he let people be themselves. And I tell you, I have a friend of mine whose brother played in that era. I won't say his name, but when I first met him, my friend's brother played for and you know, he started, and I said, What was it like to play for Gibbs? And he and Mike, he looked at me and he said, There's God, there's my father, and there's Joe Gibbs. And that it was like, that's how I see it. And I ran into another player that you know very well that should be in the Hall of Fame. And I said, You really have to appreciate in the Snyder era that Gibbs was able to come back and make two playoffs and that mess of stuff. And this player who played on the front end in the good years said, Joe Gibbs is like my father. So it's two guys I heard directly face to face say. They thought of him as a father figure. And you remember the Daryl, you remember the Daryl Green on one of the Super Bowls that NFL Films did. The he was talking about his wife just had a baby and he's in camp and he's, you know, kind of confused about what's going on. He goes, You go be with your wife. She's going through some issues. He goes, he sent me out of camp to go be with my family in the midst of camp.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: And I thought, who is this man? Like it was he goes, You go get your family straight, get your wife straight, take care of that and your new baby. That's what kind of man he is. So I think it's a lot of those

Mike Richman: I heard that too.

Jack Moore: yeah, those guys would have gone to the edge of the earth for him. It was it wasn't too many game. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I heard that too about the the father figure. reputation that that Gibbs had and how his players loved him so much because of that. Like particularly during the Sean Taylor debacle or the

Jack Moore: yeah.

Mike Richman: the situation, you know, after he was shot and then died the following day, of course. And it Gibbs was able to hold the team together and they won

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: they lost the Buffalo Bills game a few days after

Jack Moore: I was there.

Mike Richman: Taylor was shot and killed. And and then they won their last four games of that season and they finished nine to seven and went to the playoffs that year. Gibbs held the team together and And sort of like the analogy is how he held the team together during the strike shortened season in eighty two and eighty seven. I mean, like he he you know, as the story was told over the years, Disman told it. He told the the players in eighty two, listen, don't cross the picket line. Stay together. I don't want any dissension among the players. And there were other teams in the league that wanted to to to cros I mean, I'm sorry, I'm referring to eighty seven. And he said right, he told players don't cross the picket line.

Jack Moore: It was eighty seven, right. Yeah, yeah. Right.

Mike Richman: eighty two the play just stopped. The play just stopped. The the players had their own practices. Right?

Jack Moore: Yeah, but Theisman took the guys out and practiced. Yeah, they did their own practices, right? Because that was a part of what they were because of him. There's no doubt.

Mike Richman: Right. Theisman led those practices. Eighty seven though he told the players not to cross the picket line. There were other teams

Jack Moore: Exactly.

Mike Richman: in the league that did, such as the Dallas Cowboys, who the

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: Redskins come consisting of entirely replacement players, beat in the third game of that that replacement series and probably,

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Mike Richman: you know, one of the greatest upsets in NFL history. Cowboys had Danny White, Randy White, Tony Dorset played in that game.

Jack Moore: Think Dorset crossed it. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Richman: He played in that game. And I think there was one or two other regular cowboys who crossed the picket line who played in that game. but Gibbs told his players don't cross. I mean I d I don't want any dissension on the team. Dexter Manley wanted to cross. He wanted to cross the picket line. Gibbs told him not to. So and by the way I was part of that ESPN thirty for thirty the about the you called the year of the scabs, year of the scab. You

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: know, I was I was part of that and and talked about that and yeah. So that was a lot of fun. But But that that's another thing I made gives right. And then and and then during the the you know, death of Sean Taylor, he held the team together. So there was just something about him. he he knew how to relate to to players and and and how to get the most out of them. And I think if he had remained the coach in that Dan Snyder era, I think they

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: you know, they they would have continued being a really good team. If not, you know, transforming them into a great team. I think he just didn't want to coach anymore. He had he had had enough after that two thousand seven season.

Jack Moore: I think yeah, I think after the death of Taylor, and I got a picture up here back among all my stuff. There's a picture of LeVar Arrington, big fan. I'm a big fan of LeVar. I was at the Tampa game when they made the playoff on the 05 season, January of 06. I'm at that game. The one that Sean Taylor picks up a fumble in a dead run and scores and then spits on Michael Pittman and gets kicked out of the game. But I'm at that game. I'm gonna tell you what. That defense was starting to and Mark Brunel Probably like l a lot of nice things can be said about it, but I just thought at that point the game had passed him by. But they had some offensive linemen, you know, they they had some receivers, you know, Santana Moss at that point was becoming a really good player. I like Portis, but their defense, when you had Sean Taylor and LeVar Arrington on the same field, that that was that was pretty strong. And I thought, with

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: what Greg Williams was doing, I thought they're gonna be pretty good if they can figure out how to score. So they won that game seventeen to ten. with I think the least amount of offense in history to win a playoff game. It was it was awful offensively. But LeVar Arrington intercepted a pass, took it to the six, Port has scored. And the other one was the fumble that Sean Taylor picked up. That's 14 points. And that was all defensively

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: based. But anyway, I was excited to that point when Gibbs steps down and, you know, well that's a whole nother segment we could do. Let's get together, do it some other time. Snyder and coaches. I mean, God, you know, that just You know, he gets north turned a little Ravisky. Then I think Schottenheimer would have turned it around and one if he'd been left alone. But then he has to go out and he has to shop.

Mike Richman: Well that was one of Snyder's worst mistakes to g to force him into you know to fire him. I mean, that was one of Snyder's worst right. He was it

Jack Moore: 'Cause he's listened to the players. He w he

Mike Richman: was that and Brad Johnson alienating Brad Johnson by bringing in Jeff

Jack Moore: Yep, yes.

Mike Richman: George. That was that was a terrible mistake on the part of Snyder.

Jack Moore: that was huge.

Mike Richman: I mean, he made some just awful, awful decisions in his early years of owning the team that really set him back, one of which was charging fans ten dollars to attend training camp, which allowed

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: s scouts from other teams to come and watch. The Redskins practice train. I mean, they would pay ten dollars. They could come and watch the the Redskins train. And and Norf Turner, I remember talking to him, he was like, you know, that that didn't sit well with with us as coaches. I mean, we got scouts from other teams watching us. So that was a bad decision. Bringing in the, you know, half having the free agent hiring frenzy with Jeff George and Bruce Smith, Deion Sanders, Mark Carrier, th

Jack Moore: Dee Hunt, yeah.

Mike Richman: bring in those guys who was basically coming in here as mercenaries, you know, just

Jack Moore: That's right.

Mike Richman: collect a paycheck. So but bringing

Jack Moore: That's exactly right.

Mike Richman: in Jeff George that alienated Brad Johnson, bringing in Jeff George, Johnson had thrown for four thousand yards in the nineteen nineteen ninety-nine season. I mean, he was a he was becoming a really good quarterback under North Turner. And but yeah, then there were other mistakes Snyder made in the ensuing years, like destroying that, you know, sort of that two thousand five defense that you talked about, signs Adam Archuletta, two thousand six safety who who really was a flop

Jack Moore: Let's Ryan Clark go.

Mike Richman: here. Right, Ryan c exactly. And Ryan Clark was a mentor to Sean Taylor. Let him go. Right. And th and then a few years later he

Jack Moore: Right, Clark Absolutely. Absolutely. And and he was paying one one million. He was paying one one million and paid the other one three. Paid the wrong guy.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: I think Archoletta was the highest paid safety in NFL history. And then as a free agent then. And then Snyder brought in Albert Hainsworth in two thousand nine, you know, maybe thinking

Jack Moore: It's awful.

Mike Richman: that one player was going to turn a franchise around. And Hainsworth was such a dud here. I mean, he didn't live up to his billing in any way. He had previous previously been the NFL player of the year in Tennessee, but he did nothing here. And I'll never forget that Monday night game against the Eagles that Michael Vick

Jack Moore: Land on the ground.

Mike Richman: Game, he just laid on the ground and

Jack Moore: Yeah. Right.

Mike Richman: and did nothing. And I mean I remember the off the Eagles offensive linemen was looking around. Hey, who do I block here? Albert Haysworth is down on the grass. So so yeah. So Snyder made all those mistakes in his era and and I think it's a credit to Jo Joe Gibbs that he was able to hang in there for four seasons under Schneider. And maybe Snyder backed off a little bit to an

Jack Moore: He did.

Mike Richman: extent. He did, but and and Gibbs you know, was able to run things basically the way he wanted to. But Biddy Serrada was still around and

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: so yeah. It was but it was a

Jack Moore: Well, a few years a few years in I told a friend of mine, I said, The problem with Snyder is I said, you never let a guy that had redskin pajamas and a red skin belt buckle in grade school. You don't let him own the team because he's gonna be starstruck, he's gonna get closer to some players. And I was kind of kidding about it. And I see him on this interview, I think he did with HBO, and the person interviewed him is like Hey, you had redskin pajamas, didn't you? And he goes, Yeah, I had red skin. I had a little Sonny Jergenson jersey and all that kind of so he gets into he was a fan. And then he kind of, but I think he he had deference to Gibbs when he brought him in because he's like, That's still Gibbs. That's God. I gotta leave him alone. But he wanted to let everybody he he wanted to kind of micromanage. And I will say this as someone, and you're just like me, I know you you've seen the same history from ground level. If you had said to me in like two thousand one-ish, two ish and that you know, there is a man that can absolutely ruin the brand that we had become had fallen in love with from Marshall through the cook era, I said, nah, it isn't there there's no way. No, no, fans won't no, you'll go to a game and sixty percent of the fans' jerseys will be the other team. That that that'll never happen. And then I sit there and watched it happen. And I he

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: absolutely ruined it, which brings up this. I got to go here too. So we're going through the Snyder era being really kind of rough. Where are you with the name change?

Mike Richman: Well number one, nobody likes the name commanders,

Jack Moore: Right. Agreed.

Mike Richman: Nobody so but when the when the modern era sort of controversy was heating up around twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I mean, I w I was standing my ground and saying that, you know, do not change the name. And actually, that's one of the things that that fans, Redskins fans, appreciated about Dan Snyder, that that he would not change the name. I mean, he told USA Today, I will never change it. And he put you could put never in caps. So the fans really, really like that about him. And then it he you know so happened he caved to a financial pressure in twenty

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: twenty. FedEx was gonna pull out as one of his sponsors, and there was another sponsor that was gonna leave as well. So he caved to that and he, you know, became the Washington football team. But so I believe Redskins, you know, over the years, the only thing the team has done is is with that name is honor Native Americans, even starting with George Preston Marshall. I mean, that was his

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: intention in creating the name Redskins. Number one, when they were in Boston as the Braves in 1932, and then left that stadium after where they lost their lease and they went to Fenway Park, home of the Red Sox, he created a connection with the Red Sox, hence

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: Red, and he wanted to keep the Native American theme that he had with the Braves. So Redskins, but also he he hired a coach that claimed to be a part-blooded Native American, Lodestar Dietz, who had previously played with Jim Thorpe at Carlyle under Pop Warner and Marshall hence brought Indian style football to the team, a faster paced style of play. And also Marshall he loved Hollywood. I mean had an affinity for Hollywood, and he knew of a silent movie called Redskin, which was a nineteen twenty nine movie. it was very sympathetic toward the plight of Native Americans. So that's another reason that he chose the name Redskins at the time. So then Marshall would honor Redskins over the years. I mean he had pictures of famous Indian leaders on the cover of his game programs, like he had Osceola, the seminole leader on the cover of a 1950s program. So he would honor them. but it it was only the name itself was only meant in in reverence to Native Americans, was never meant to disparage them in any way, as a sports nickname for the for the team. And so but there's been sort of controversy over the years. It wasn't just during the Snyder era. I mean There was a columnist for the old Washington Star who was writing about it in the early 70s, saying, you know, to retire the name, you know, it's offensive. And Ed Edward Brennan Williams did not. He stood his ground as well. And actually, 72 is when the logo came about, and that was the vision of a Native American, a prominent Native American named Walter Blackie Wetzel. It was his

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: idea to create that logo that existed on the Redskins helmet. for nearly fifty years and that was the logo of a you know it was a composite that Wetzel presented to Allen and and it became that logo that was on the Redskins helmet for for nearly a half century until it was retired with the name in twenty twenty. So but now there are Native American groups that want that logo back and they want the name back and who knows what's gonna happen what

Jack Moore: I I've interviewed them. I I've interviewed some of and they're mad. And I get it. You know, I'm about like that much Native American. I mean, I grew up in Virginia, so I mean there's some history back, but like I'm always like, What percentage do you have to be to have a voice in it? But I've had on an Indian chief, an American Indian chief of a particular tribe in Virginia, and he's part of the, you know, the the was it the Native American Guardian Association that wants the name and they they want the Cleveland Indians back. And These people are mad and they said they w Yes, exactly South yes, exactly.

Mike Richman: Is that the tribe from from southeastern Virginia? The Nottaway tribe? Yes, I know I know that yeah, he definitely wants the name back. But yeah, I mean there are Native American

Jack Moore: Yeah. Cheap brown. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Right, right. The Native American Guardians Association, they're leading the way. The the Wetzel family itself,

Jack Moore: Yes. Yes.

Mike Richman: they they want the name back. then yeah, so don't be surprised if something happens. In conjunction with the opening of the new stadium in 2030. I mean, I'm not counting out.

Jack Moore: Right. I wondered, yeah.

Mike Richman: After that, I mean if nothing happens in terms of going back to the name Redskins and the logo, I think we may be at the point of no return, but something could happen in conjunction with the opening of the new stadium. And I'll say this, you know, Donald Trump, when he made those remarks in the summer of 2025, it i

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: I think that that lit a fire under the team. And and since then we've seen like a gradual

Jack Moore: No doubt.

Mike Richman: a gradual move toward restoring the Native American tradition on the team, such as the, you know, more burgundy and gold uniforms, the traditional colors, Braves on the Warpath is now back in the lyrics of the fight song.

Jack Moore: Yeah, I saw that. I when I was at the game, I saw that. I heard it and

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: I was like, Did I just see that and then see it on the board? And I'm like, why isn't somebody I don't want them to get any any traction on this, but I would think somebody wait a minute, wait a minute, you got Braves on the warpath. Which brings up another point. I didn't know why. Maybe it wasn't the right time in twenty twenty. But I was like, Why don't you revert back to Braves? It's the original team name. Keep the logo. Just go to Washington Braves. The Atlanta's getting away with it. Why don't you you know go that route? But again, twenty twenty probably didn't seem like the right time. But I thought, you know, if Braves offensive, and again, you like you say they're putting it back into the fight song And I you know

Mike Richman: Right. And also they sold out of all the Redskins merchandise on their online store. The the Commanders.

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: They sold now that was, I think, in in part to maintain the trademark of the name Redskins.

Jack Moore: Trademark, exactly.

Mike Richman: Right. But they still sold out of all that Redskins

Jack Moore: People want it.

Mike Richman: merchandise online, which really shows the hunger of people

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: to recognize the Redskins. And and like the ninety-five percent of the fan base, the Redskins fan base or the Washington football fan base, they want that name back. So don't be surprised if something happens in the coming years. They're going back to the spear, by the way. they're gonna I think they're gonna tease the spear this season, twenty twenty six, but it sounds like they're going back to the spear on the helmet full time in twenty twenty seven. They had the spear on the helmet in in the nineteen sixties. Right. So don't be surprised.

Jack Moore: That's what I've heard. On the Burgundy helmet. Right. Right. It's gonna be Yeah,

Mike Richman: I mean

Jack Moore: it's on the black one this year, but now they're talking about and like you were saying, now they've gone to this gold pants that they wore against San Francisco the other night, which is more in line with the whole 79 uniform change. In 79, when they went to the uniform change, it was, you know, a stripe of each color on whatever the color pant, and that became the Joe Gibbs uniform. So they're wearing that now. They've put the stripes

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: goal with the white surrounding like the helmet. The only thing different is, you know, John Tugun's white calf isn't there. It's a W there. So they they are sneaking a bunch of stuff back in. And Josh Harris grew up in the area like, you know, kind of like we did, or you you're even closer to that area. I wonder if like at dinner

Mike Richman: He grew up in Montgomery County, Maryland.

Jack Moore: Yeah, I wonder if at dinner parties people aren't Josh, come on already. Just bring it back. Like you know we all want it. And I think he probably won. If if you're

Mike Richman: Think he wants it too. And Mitch Rails, Mitch Rales, one of the minority owners, he grew up in Montgomery County as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants it back. I mean, he he's a few years older than me, so he obvious he grew up with the the George Allen year in the 70s. He knew he

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Mike Richman: he knows of that, he knows of the the Joe Gibbs Glory years. I mean, and Harris does as well. so don't be surprised if something happens in the coming seasons. I mean, I the the pressure is building, and maybe the NF. NFL will relent. I you know, initially I think there was some pressure on the part of the NFL too for them to to retire the name and the logo. But but

Jack Moore: No doubt. No doubt.

Mike Richman: yeah, but I I think the NFL is backing off a little bit and just I I do have a source in the Native American community. I asked him the very question, you know, do you think the name will come back at some point? He told me, quote, buckle up. So, you know, we we can only hope.

Jack Moore: Well, I I think so th this is just again anecdotal evidence, whatever, but there's a young lady that does a podcast that I've that I watched and I don't know her origin or you know what her ethnicity is, but she said when she got her master's degree she decided to go to a Native American school in New Mexico. So she said it's Navajo Indians and I'm on this campus and this was right after the name change. And she said, I'm shocked. Every male on this campus has got on a Redskins jacket and a Braves cap, like one or the other or both. And she said she walked up to this one kid who has on John Tucun's white calf on the back and the you know and the big red skin emblem on the back logo. And she goes, Well, clearly you're offended by this. He goes, No, that's badass. Look how beautiful that design. Every kid she talks to is like, now Chief Brown that we mentioned earlier, he told me that in the 80s. Really the self esteem and just sort of what was happening in the Native American community went through the roof in the eighties with Gibbs, like we're like, Yeah, that's our team and we're winning. And I was like, I would think

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: you kind of s I don't know how you look at that logo, which is absolutely the greatest logo in sports history, and see it as offensive or derogatory. It's beautiful. It's just great. And of course I won it.

Mike Richman: It's meant to show Native Americans as warriors and proud

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: fighters. I mean, I how could you not like it? I mean, you don't have to be a Native American to like it. Everybody does. I mean, it's just it really presents them in in such a positive light. I mean, there's there's nothing mocking about it. Like the didn't the Cleveland Indians have like a Chief Wahoo or s or as their logo? It's kind of mocking. So so I understand why why they erased that logo. But also want to say something about

Jack Moore: Chief Lahoo, yeah, that was that was yeah, that was unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Mike Richman: The per the percentage of Native Americans, I mean, the major polls have shown the Associated Press poll and the the Anaberg Institute in 2004.

Jack Moore: Washington Post had a poll. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: I mean Associated Press 2004 in coordination with Annaberg and then Washington Post in 2014, they both concluded basically the same thing that 90% of Native Americans do not find that term offensive. Also, Blackie Wetzel, who like I explained earlier, he he collaborated with Allen in 1972 to create that logo. He told the Washington Post in in 2002, quote, it's a small group of radicals that oppose that name. Small

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: group of radical, radical Native Americans that oppose that name. So the majority of of American Indians want that name on on the sports team. I mean, they are very proud of that name, and I c we can only hope that it that the team at some point does recognize that and that they do do bring that name back.

Jack Moore: All right, final thing we're gonna do here. We're gonna be about another ten, fifteen, twenty minutes or whether we're gonna final thing final thing we're gonna go. Who do you think give me your Mount Rushmore first of the franchise. Who are the four biggest figures? Be it coach, be it owner, be it player, who who are the Mount Rushmore figures you think of the team?

Mike Richman: So if you're going to include coaches, I would say Sammy Baugh, Daryl

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: Green, Art Monk, and your coach is Joe Gibbs. Right?

Jack Moore: Okay. Right. Right.

Mike Richman: actually let me let me flip that around. Sammy Baugh, Daryl Green, John Riggins, and Joe Gibbs. That's your coach. Now, if you're if you're gonna remove coaches, you you put Art Monk in there. He would be

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: on the Mount Rushmore. So if it's only players, it'd be Sammy Baugh, Daryl Green, John Riggins and R. Monk. That's your your Mountain Rushmore of players and players with a coach.

Jack Moore: You know, I remember February sixth when Sonny passed. I love John Riggins. I just think that we're all the Riggins. I love to listen to him tell stories and all the rest. And I th I thought that piece where his number got retired where he said, Folks, the worst two hours of my life were those ones just before or the the two hours preceding the game. I had knots in my stomach, and he goes, And today they're gonna find out I'm a fraud. So fans, I'm telling you, I played for you. You know, I literally played for you. I played I played for the cheering, but anyway, love Reggins. And Reggins said when Sonny passed, he said, Yeah, a lot of people think I'm a big deal in town. You know, there's others, Daryl Green, Art Monk, whatever he goes. But Sonny was the biggest because not only did he play, he went to the radio booth, he had done television. We we had a 60 year run of Sonny Jorgensen. And he was I think he was like maybe the most beloved figure in town. But I agree with what you're saying. Those those are the biggest. Now let me ask you this question then. there seems to me there's a thing going on right now with the team formerly known as the Redskins, I'll just put it that way. That trip overseas recently, there was some calls that were just bad. And there's a lot of people out there, you know, it's kind of rumors rumbling, you know, for whatever is it years of being, you know, the Snyder thing leading to just bad ill will towards them. It almost seems comical

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: somehow that and now here's my question though, to you too. How on earth what's your view on why did it take Art Monk eight years of ballots to get into the Hall of Fame? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. What what do you think?

Mike Richman: Well, there's a number of reasons that one of which I think is is legitimate, and that is he didn't do anything in the Superbowl. And the four Super Bowls that the Redskins appeared in, he didn't

Jack Moore: Right. Well, Bills

Mike Richman: he didn't catch a

Jack Moore: Bills he did. He he had a good Super Bowl twenty-six. Right. Seventeen he wasn't in it.

Mike Richman: But I think it was a t a touchdown was a touchdown was called back in that suit he caught a touchdown pass but

Jack Moore: Yeah, but he had some plays it right. No, he he did, right. He w his foot was just outside the line in twenty six. But yeah, seventeen he's injured. He catches one pass in Super Bowl twenty two. And he's shut down in Super Bowl eighteen. With the whole yeah, him and Charlie Brown both are shut down. So you're right. He didn't have a super history. I would agree with that, except he played pretty well against

Mike Richman: So and

Jack Moore: the Bills.

Mike Richman: So what I was explaining is in the eyes of the sports writers who vote

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: for that, I mean, they saw that he he wasn't really an impact player in in the four Super Bowls. Like, you know, of course he didn't play in Super Bowl seventeen. yeah, he did have some catches in twenty six, but no touchdown catches. comparatively, I mean, Lin Swan had many fewer catches, but he had those spectacular catches that we all remember, such as in Super Bowl ten.

Jack Moore: Big moments. Right.

Mike Richman: you know, catching that pass over Mark Washington, that that bomb from from Terry Bradshaw. And then in the Super Bowl against the Rams, he had another flying one in the end zone that he caught I believe he was either thirteen or fourteen. So so we remember all that. We didn't remember that about Art Monk. another reason, and I heard this from from some of the sports writers who covered him at the time, he was he was very quiet, to say

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: it nicely with those writers. He d he didn't like He didn't like talking to them. So, you know, whether

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: they were ended up on the voting committee or they knew other people on the voting committee. I mean, word spread in the media community about who Art Monk was in the post game locker room or in practice or whatever, that he was you know, basically keeping them at arm's length in terms of he was he wasn't you know, a quote machine like Dexter Manley was, so to speak. So I think that's another reason for the delay in him getting in. I mean, it did take him a while. But but he he is in you know deservedly so obviously and it was great to see him get in the same year as Darrell Green, two thousand eight, and then to for the Redskins to play in the Hall of Fame game that year as well. I mean that was I was at the the Hall of Fame that summer. That was a a real treat to be there at the time.

Jack Moore: Well, I have a thing too. Again, I'm sensitive because I'm that fan, but I remember going into Super Bowl twenty six. I was listening to the usual suspects, writers and all, and they're like, hey, Bills might be the sexiest team ever. Maybe the greatest defense. What juggernaut offense. Look at this, look at that. And I looked at the numbers. We scored more points. We allowed less, more turnout. I mean, everything going into the Super Bowl, Washington was a edge ahead of the Bills. And then it's a 37-24, and you know, two of the touchdowns were throwaways at the end that didn't matter. It was pretty much a blowout. It was it was a very dominant game. I felt the same way with Denver. You it's a 42-10 game, but going to ooh, it's Denver, it's Elway, and then you know, you saw what happened. I always felt there was a little bit of with Monk, he slept with his own wife. He didn't have felony charges, he didn't have a cocaine addiction. He was boring, I think, to these people because he's a good man. He's a great man. And I think when you leave the league, my thing was if you leave the league and you've done more of something that you got paid to do than anyone that ever played, and that's how he left the league. You're a you're a Hall of Famer. And I I remember one particular sports writer, and you know I'm talking about he goes, Well, he didn't have a signature catch for me. He didn't have this and this. And that bothered me. So let's go to this one too. Cause I do think that there's sometimes a twist. Gibbs is a man of faith, and he's had many players. come off that team that are men of faith, including Daryl Green. And I think that there's a little bit of a they weren't sexy in the eyes of the world kind of thing. They just they were nice men that, like I said, went home to their own wives and they didn't create a lot of problems. Not that we didn't have some history with Dexter Manley, but God love him. He came back into the fold. He was kind of saved by the people of DC 'cause we loved him as a character. But, you know, Dexter's a good guy. in the end, he he came around. Joe Jacoby, what do you think is the issue with Jacoby?

Mike Richman: I think he's number one, he's been overshadowed by by Russ Grimm getting in.

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: but you know, I I think Jacoby will get there someday. In fact, you know, in speaking with somebody who previously was on the the selection committee, the three players that will get in at some point are are

Jack Moore: Okay.

Mike Richman: Jacoby, London Fletcher, and Brian Mitchell. Those th I'm sorry, those are the three that have the best chance of getting in. And I definitely think Brian Mitchell should be there because he's second all time in NFL history in all purpose yardage.

Jack Moore: Yes, Mitchell belongs. Mitchell absolutely. Yes, of in yards. Yes.

Mike Richman: By Jerry Ri by Jerry Rice. And Jerry Rice played 14, I mean played 20 seasons and Mitchell played fourteen. So there's no way Mitchell should not be in. I I just cannot figure that out. Even if they the the critics say, well, critics say, well, mostly he was a a special teams player, who's a kick returner. Well, so what? I mean, Devin Hester is in as well. So Mitchell should be

Jack Moore: Yards are yards.

Mike Richman: in. London Fletcher, I did a side by side comparison with Ray Lewis of of Fletcher in the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia. Their numbers, their statistics are very, very similar. I mean, but Ray Lewis was this flamboyant guy and and he played played on Super Bowl more more than than Fletcher did. Fletcher was on the you know greatest show on turf in the nineties, so people didn't really remember it. They didn't really see him in the postseason much past that. But Ray Lewis was was this outspoken guy you remember his dance, you know, entering the the end zone and all that. So I mean he got in and he had all these all pro seasons that Fletcher didn't have. So I wanna get back to the Gibbs question you asked me earlier about, you know, what made Joe Gibbs a great coach. One of the things is, I mean, he won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks, you know, Fizman, Doug Williams, and and Mark Rippin, none of whom none of those guys will be in the Hall of Fame. Feizman, you know, being the closest in terms of Hall of Fame

Jack Moore: Sure.

Mike Richman: recognition, but he won't get in. so that's another thing that made made Joe Gibbs a great coach. He could he adapted to his talent, which is a point I w I was making earlier, his level of talent. I mean, Mark Rippin Sure, he had breakout season in ninety-one. That was his greatest season in the NFL. and it but he benefited from the fact that the the Hogs, the offensive line, only allowed nine sacks that year. Otherwise, Ripon would not have done as well as he did, because he was he was not a mobile quarterback as well. He

Jack Moore: Not at all.

Mike Richman: would not have been able to scramble. No. So that's another thing that that made Gibbs a great coach. And that ninety one team was was Gibbs' greatest team, better than the eighty three team that lost to the Raiders in Super Bowl eighteen. even though the the eighty three team, you know, set a NFL record for points five forty one, the ninety three team was mu ninety one team was much better balanced on offense and defense and of course won Super Bowl twenty six, just destroying the the Bills that day, thirty seven to twenty four. So that was the that was Gibbs' greatest team, ninety one.

Jack Moore: When I talked to Kirk Buckner and about, you know, not in the Hall of Fame and what he's done with that, not in the hall of fame.com, you go there to see him. he asked me one time, because he again, he's a guy that grew up in Canada, a big hockey guy, and and he said, Hey, what's this whole you know thing about give? I Joe Jacoby. I hear he should be, some people think, and I said, To be honest with you, I think what's unfair to him is too much bad film against Lawrence Taylor. And he goes, You know what? Another guy,

Mike Richman: I agree with that actually.

Jack Moore: he goes, another guy said that. I said, Dude, if you played for like, you know, the Oakland Raiders or LA, whoever at the time, you know, Pickotine. And you weren't in the NFC East and you didn't have to face Lawrence Taylor twice. I'm I'm actually in Williamsburg, Virginia. I'm five miles from where he went to high school. Sean Taylor's the greatest football player I ever saw, but I know I I I went to one Giants Ritzkins game and missed Taylor because he didn't play that day. But I know and I know and I know he's the best ever. He was just different. There's this never you know And I thought LeVar Arrington might be him. I really did. I thought when LeVar Arrington broke into the league, he might be the next LT because he's a big physical linebacker. But anyway, I said in that 86th season when they got the three shots at the Giants in that home game when Schrader threw five picks and he had he was wearing Taylor all over him. I think there was.

Mike Richman: Yes, it was sacked six times in that game.

Jack Moore: Yeah, there was this, and I think he threw five picks. It was just like, you know, a really bad day. But do I think Jacoby belongs? Yes. And I think when it came to playing left tackle, there's no question Lachey was a better athlete at that position. So in 91, when they'd moved Jacoby over to right tackle, where he could just be a road grader and go out there and just run over people, more of a run blocker. And Lachey was out. Because if you go back and look at Super Bowl 26 2, I think Bruce Smith had like an assist on a tackle, and he didn't come anywhere close to getting a sack. Lache just handed him, you know, his ass all day. So Jacoby

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: was But Jacoby, if you're you know, it's like John Madden used to say, Can you tell a story of an era of pro football without that guy in it? I don't think you can tell the eighties without Joe Jacoby. I don't. So I think he belonged. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Right. Well, he's he's on the all decade team of the eighties. He he belongs. I'll also say, and in the point that you initially made about Lawrence Taylor, I mean, that's what people remember about that those years in the eighties that that Joe Jacoby was getting burned by Lawrence Taylor. It so happened that yeah, they played in the same same division, the NFC East. So he went

Jack Moore: So is everybody else? Yeah.

Mike Richman: up against them twice every year. But Jacoby was also a four time all pro, a four time pro bowler from the period

Jack Moore: He was.

Mike Richman: of eighty three through eighty six. So He he deserves serious consideration. I hope he gets in. he he's the only other hog that I would say who's who's going to get in Jeff Bostick well and Lachey, of course will not get into the Hall of Fame. It's very unfortunate with Lachey because he was a great, great player. And if he hadn't had those injuries in the early nineties,

Jack Moore: Get hurt. Yeah.

Mike Richman: you know, after the ninety one season, he would be in the Hall of Fame today. He was very, very unfortunate. Yeah. He was a great player.

Jack Moore: I no doubt. No, I think he was definitely a Hall Yeah, he was a Hall of Fame talent for sure. He was phenomenally good. He could run. I mean it's

Mike Richman: I mean from

Jack Moore: go ahead.

Mike Richman: And from period from eighty nine through ninety one, he relinquished one sack. Or he was credited

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: with giving up one one sack during that period. so he really and playing that left tackle position, nobody was better at that time. He was even good when he played for for the San Diego Chargers. I'm sorry, for the he was with the Chargers and Raiders. Right.

Jack Moore: Played for both. He played for the Chargers and the Raiders. Yeah, because he was a trade, he was the trade that did. So let me ask you that one question

Mike Richman: The trader.

Jack Moore: too. Where were I think that Taylor was I mean, Taylor, Jay Schrader was one of the most insanely talented physical quarterbacks I've ever seen. I mean, the the

Mike Richman: I was

Jack Moore: right. And I was on his side. So when he comes in in 85, November 18, when he comes in on the leg break of Thysman. Goes five and one, twelve and four, gets to the championship game. When he gets thrown on his shoulder in that opening game against the Eagles, and Doug Williams comes in, mops up that game, and then it's back and forth during that strike season. I felt like Schrader was the future. But apparently he was disliked in the locker room. There was there was definitely a tug of war there between him and Gibbs and And and I'll put it this way Doug Williams picked the best day of his life to have the best day of his life. And he did. You

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: know, then they come back and gives 1.0. He has his only losing season the next year. I'm not saying because Schrader got shipped out, they lost, but the first year of Williams and now trying to transition to Ripon just didn't work. And I like Stan Humphreys. He comes a little bit later. But where were you on the Williams and Schrader controversy? Do you think it was the right move to let Schrader get out of town?

Mike Richman: Well, I heard the same thing that he was he was disliked. Bobby Bethard didn't really care for him that much. so you

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: know, Bethard could could have been behind the decision to trade him. but Schrader also had that shoulder injury in the season opener in nineteen eighty seven that really

Jack Moore: Yes. Yes.

Mike Richman: derailed his his eighty seven season and then, you know, it

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: was musical chairs with him and Williams from then on that season. so but he was he was a an amazing physical specimen. he could he could

Jack Moore: Holy cow.

Mike Richman: run like a deer, he would scramble, he could he had a a a an arm like a cannon. I mean, I don't think anybody had ever seen as strong an arm at that point. it just he was he was a tremendous, tremendous physical specimen. And it's really unfortunate what happened to him in eighty seven. I mean he was on his way to being a great, great quarterback. He threw for more than four thousand yards in eighty six. So

Jack Moore: Made the Pro Bowl.

Mike Richman: just hey here, just to get his timing down a little better. His passes, particularly his shorter passes, were too hard. He was throwing them too hard. But I think that would have happened over time. now as far as Williams, he really he was very fortunate in a number of ways prior to the Super Bowl, Super Bowl twenty-two. he had a root canal the day it was really it was detected the day before the Super Bowl. he had been hurting, his teeth had been hurting for like two weeks, but it he didn't tell anybody about it. Then it really got bad in practice, a Saturday morning practice the day before the Super Bowl. So the Redskins team dentist performed surgery on him. It was then a five and a half hour procedure, but only an hour procedure today, the day be day before the Super Bowl, and that corrected the issue with the root canal. But Williams was in terrible pain and he probably would not have played in Super Bowl twenty two the next day, meaning Schrader would have played. So, you know, you know, history tells funny stories, but but that's That's what would have happened. So so Williams really was really fortunate in a number of ways during that sequence that that Gibbs tapped him to be the starter and you know that the Redskins won their first two playoff games and then you know got it to Super Bowl twenty two. And by the way, I was at that NFC championship game against the Vikings at RFK Stadium. And Williams did not play very well that game actually.

Jack Moore: Right. He didn't play well at all. Well, you know, and the sequence was Schrader lost the job in the final game against Minnesota, and I'm like, okay, that's it. He's he's pretty much done. Then they go to the Bears, which Schrader did the year before, and Williams beats him in Chicago. Then when they play in the championship game, the whole game, I'm kinda like, Well, if you're gonna be fair on this, Joe Gibbs, it's time to pull him because I think it was like nine for twenty six or something. He wasn't playing particularly well. And I thought maybe Schrader gets another shot. Then I've also said that Schrader his career in Washington was pretty much ended by Kelvin Bryant. He missed the block that led to the sack when Schrader came in after the injury to Williams. And then he dropped the ball. It was third and twenty two, but then he dropped the ball in the route right over the middle. And then next thing you know, Dougie comes in and bombs Sanders and then it's on if you know, eighteen plays, five touchdowns, and it's all history. But Yeah, I was a big fan of Schrader, and you know, I tell the young people, because I'm coaching baseball, I'm like, you know, the athletes were better. You don't have a Bo Jackson like we did back in the eighties. And I mentioned that because I know professional baseball, work with a lot of kids in it. Jay Schrader was the third overall pick in professional baseball drafts. He so he was playing Pro Ball with Toronto at the same time he was at UCLA, and then eventually he comes back from baseball. And he was a catcher, and then he he struggled hitting.

Mike Richman: Wasn't wasn't he he was a catcher, right? Was he a ca Right.

Jack Moore: And they put him in center field because he ran so well so he had such a big arm. He used to win beer bets. He'd stand on the mound and throw the ball over the center field wall, you know, and that's kind of a poor man's radar gun. If you can throw the ball 300 plus feet, you can throw 90 or better. So I gotta throw this out there because I've looked all over YouTube and I cannot find it. But I know what he said. He was doing a show when everybody loved him in eighty six, and one of these guys in local DC was like, Jay, just how far can you throw a football? And he goes, Well, we were screwing around at practice the other day, and I stood on the goal line. I hit the 14, which would be 86 yards. And that seems unreal, but I was looking at a guy just posted the 87 Redskins Dolphins at the end of the 87th season, and he throws a pass. And I've got to remember Larry Zonka was on there, and I can't remember the guy's name. It was it was, I don't know, it was one of the other stations, like may have been ESPN covering the game. I think it was ESPN. But one of the guys on there is like, my gosh, Larry. The other guy, how far did he just throw it? And they show it. And if you do the math, from where he releases to where it hits the ground, 75 yards. And he threw some

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: balls in games that were like 60 yard lasers, like line drives. He really did. But but so did

Mike Richman: Yeah, an amazing, amazing arm. It was a it was a cannon for an arm. Right.

Jack Moore: Williams. I mean, Williams had a big arm. I mean, Doug Williams could throw a football a mile. So I mean, it was a different era. I think the arms

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: were I just think everybody was better than they were multiple sport athletes. Yeah.

Mike Richman: But you know, Doug Williams, I just want to make a point about yeah, you know, that last regular season game against the Vikings, he threw two interceptions in that game. So

Jack Moore: He did.

Mike Richman: while he led the team to a comeback victory in overtime that day, which was very, very I mean, I think they were already in the in the playoffs, they already won the NFC East at that point. But they they

Jack Moore: That's correct.

Mike Richman: needed momentum. They needed momentum heading into the playoffs. And but but yeah, he threw two interceptions that day, but but Gibbs stuck with him. He said, you know. Doug Williams is my man. He had a he had a pretty good game against the Bears in the playoff opener. Yeah.

Jack Moore: I think Gibbs he did, he did. I think Gibbs had already made up his mind.

Mike Richman: Yeah. And then but yeah, in that Vikings NFC championship game, he did not play well at all, but Gibbs stayed with him. And also like like I said in the story I I explained about the dentist, if if that operation doesn't happen the day before the game, it's unlikely that Williams even plays in the Super Bowl. So which would have meant Schrader would have played. But but actually Williams was a was a tremendous, tremendous free agent signing by the Redskins before the eighty six season. Jack Ken Cook was willing to p pay him a million dollars to be a backup quarterback, which was again a great decision by Cook to open his pockets to Williams and bring him in. But Doug Williams threw only one pass in '86. he he sat behind Schrader. And actually, Williams didn't like the fact that in the NFC Championship game in '86, Schrader was knocked woozy by it was either Banks or Taylor or the the rush, the you know, Giants pass rush. And so he was he he was kinda it was uncertain whether he was going to continue in the game and Gibbs tapped Williams to go in the game, but Schrader waved him off. And Doug Williams didn't like that about him. He didn't like that

Jack Moore: Yeah, and you you know what?

Mike Richman: about him at all.

Jack Moore: I remember when it happened. I remember it, you know, the wind was blowing forty miles an hour and the Redskins couldn't do anything. Gary Clark famously dropped that one pass, maybe that makes a difference, but you know. I've looked at that and and being a coach and having been, you know, and playing college athletics baseball, but if the if the manager looks at me and I'm on the mound and he's like You know, kind of pointing towards the bullpen. I'm like, no, leave him there. I'm gonna pitch. That's not directed at that guy. I never thought that Schrader was like it Doug Williams, and I've seen the interviews, he's like, you know, that kind of stuck with me, and I never really got past that. And I was kind of like, You and Schrader may not have gotten along, but I think Schrader was saying, I'm not leaving the game, Joe. I'm staying in. And he was a little bit upset

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: with Gibbs that Gibbs didn't push it. He goes, He gave me a play. And he said, Doug go in. Why didn't he stand by that? Why did he let Schrader wave me off? So he took it personally.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: And I think that was just a product of they didn't particularly like each other. And Schrader, again, was not a very likable guy, according to a lot of the players. But I never thought that what he did waving him off was anything more than I'm not coming out. I mean, he could have said he could have been,

Mike Richman: Right. It could have been that.

Jack Moore: yeah, I don't think that was directed again, but they may not like each other. It it it may have, you know, made Schrader feel better to say, hey, Doug, get off the field. But I don't think it was directed. I think you I I think when you watch the film, it's just like, I'm not coming out. Get away, you know, push back. And then again, William. But it was bad, you know. And I've heard all these players, I've heard Bostick on that NFL films they did on that season. Schrader thought he was better than everybody else. You know, all this kind of things has come out. And it's it is a locker room. People do have to get along. It's close quarters. I get it. I just thought his talent at that age, he's born in 61, he's 26 years old. I think at that point, you're not going to find a 4'6 40 guy that can throw the ball at the stadium. But if he can't get along with his teammates, I get it, whatever. But I just thought coming in after Thizman, like, wow, was that a find? And that was a Bobby Bethard third round pick. He took him in the third round. I just thought,

Mike Richman: I'm just saying eighty

Jack Moore: In eighty four draft.

Mike Richman: eighty four. I was hoping they were that the Redskins were going to draft Boomer's Ison. I quarterback out of

Jack Moore: Yeah, local guy, yeah.

Mike Richman: University of Maryland. Yeah, yeah. Local I was pulling for him, local guy. I went to Maryland. I was hoping they were going to draft Boomer, but they they drafted Schrader instead. but also but you know in in the Super Bowl itself, Super Bowl twenty two. So Williams went out of that game for a couple of plays because he strained his knee or something. And

Jack Moore: The knee injury, right.

Mike Richman: he told the story over the years he was not going to stay on the sidelines because he did

Jack Moore: Exactly.

Mike Richman: not want Schrader to be playing in that game. So yeah, there was bad blood between the two. They they just they just

Jack Moore: Exactly. No doubt. No doubt.

Mike Richman: didn't like each other.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and and I you go back and look at the press too, because I remember the Washington Times and the Washington Post, because I c I kept a lot of the cutouts. They made it very political. They they were really going back and forth about Gibbs and what decision he needed to make and all this. And it it got really personal and everybody seemed to be coming after Schrader. And I think that's why Schrader became 'Cause remember he was the toast of he was he was the toast of the town in eighty six. When and after that

Mike Richman: He was.

Jack Moore: eighty five leg break of Thizman, and he c he's the fair haired boy. And then when he has that eighty six season and makes it all the way to the NFC championship, I everybody, wow, here's our future. You know, he's on TV, he's doing commercials. Then everything crashes in large part to Reggie White, 'cause Reggie White was the guy that took him down when he fell on his shoulder and three hundred pounds and big strong guy and He j you're right, he just never was the same after that. Not that season.

Mike Richman: He didn't like now he not that season, but in Oakland he he had a pretty good career there. I mean I if I'm I may be wrong, I think he had a pro bowl season in Oakland or

Jack Moore: He he did okay, but he just the Raiders were kind of think from that 83 team that beat up on us, they were kind of backsliding.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: Schrader was there a little bit with Bo, and then Bo got hurt, and then he fell out of favor there too. And he cleaned up at the end at Arizona. I think he played with the Cardinals a little bit. But

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: no, I mean, well, what we got for

Mike Richman: There's just

Jack Moore: it, we got Lachey. So there's no doubt we got the better end of that. You know, I mean I would have liked to have kept Schrader around and see what he developed into, but yeah, getting Jim Lachey for him locked down another Super Bowl victory. There's no question.

Mike Richman: And then may have been o of all Bobby Bethard's trades, that that was probably the best one, getting Lachey. Yeah, it was it was

Jack Moore: It's good one. It was a good one. There there's

Mike Richman: a really, really good one. and also the Gibbs inherited some some really good players from the George Allen era too. I mean,

Jack Moore: No doubt.

Mike Richman: John Riggins, Joe Thizman, Mark Mosley, Mark Murphy, all those guys were are instrumental in the early run of the of the Gibbs era. Those were inherited. Now I'm not I'm not saying that George Allen deserves any credit. for what Gibbs did in in his early years coaching the Redskins. But th that was very, very important to have those players, when when Gibbs became the the Redskins coach. Although he and Dizman as yeah Dizman went to his house after the Redskins lost their first five games that year and he said, Coach, you know, we're not seeing eye to eye and you know what what can we do to straighten this out and you know I'll get rid of my all my outside interests, my restaurant, my my T V shows, all my money making ventures and I just want to focus on football, which is whatever he did, he did the right thing, Theizman, because and Gibbs too. Gibbs stuck with him and Theisman had a great year in eighty one and that team itself, which finished eight and eight, I mean, they were the top offense in the league by the end of the season and then just carried it into to eighty two. So yeah, the momentum was there.

Jack Moore: I was always a big fan of Theisman. So as a kid, like I said, my first game is in sixty eight in DC Stadium. Face value of the ticket, six and a half bucks, and I saw Sunny, and then in sixty-nine I was at the October twelfth, sixty-nine, first game when it was called RFK. So I have that history going back. But as a kid, I remember growing up getting the Richmond Station, getting Channel Six CBS affiliate out of Richmond, Virginia, every Sunday. At twelve o'clock after church, at twelve o'clock before the twelve thirty NFL pregame started. This is way before the Musburger time, but they would show hope Notre Dame highlights. And I remember Terry Hanratdy being the quarterback at one point in the late sixties, and then it was over to Theisman. And I love Theisman. So when Theisman came in in seventy four to be the quarterback, I was elated, like, hey, he's a red skin now, this is great. So and I know he's come a long ways from probably perceptions of him. You know, you're coming into town in 74 and he's getting restaurants and, you know, he's doing media appearances and people are like, dude, you're the third team quarterback. You're not even the starter. You know, you kind of kind of thing. But I think a lot with that leg break, and you know that. I actually saw Theisman years ago in an airport flying. And I had a kid that I work with that just entered Pro Ball. And when we When he went up to get an autograph and talked to him and told him he was playing pro ball, Fiseman got all excited about his background. It's actually the kid up here at the top pitching for the Rangers. So he w

Mike Richman: He was playing pro pro football?

Jack Moore: No, that I have a kid that's up here at the very top of the picture up here of that's pitching for the Texas Rangers. I'd taken this kid out to work with a guy

Mike Richman: Okay. Taxes Rangers, okay.

Jack Moore: in California. We're getting in an airport, and I'm like, wow, that's Joey T. And this kid's like, Who's that? I'm like, he's the famous quarterback. the guy that broke his leg. He goes, Yeah. So he approaches them to talk to him. Tells him he's playing professional baseball. And Feisman's like, tell me all about you and your career and everything. It's really nice guy. And I, you know, he's talked a lot about being, you know, winning the Super Bowl, losing the Super Bowl. You're in a six and five season, or five and six at the time, I think, when the leg break happened. Or was it five and five going into the game, I think, and then they won with Schrader. But everything, you know, the wheel.

Mike Richman: I think they five and five going into that game. Yeah.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and the wheels are coming off the cart, you know, and then he gets injured. I think it was humbling and a lot of different things. But I will say this too. You probably saw the football life of Theisman, and I thought, as a guy, this was one of the most powerful things I've ever seen. Joe, I mean, Thizeman and Lawrence Taylor go out to the now grown up, there's trees growing on the field at RFK before they've told me to take it down.

Mike Richman: Stadium.

Jack Moore: And he goes, I still remember the smell of the grass. I remember the clock said ten eighteen. He's telling him this because you call me the next day, you know, and LT goes, Yeah, man, and you were kind of whining about your leg hurt, you know. So they're kind of gig they're they're kind of kidding each other, but then the the moment that I thought was so special, Taylor looks at him and he said, But Joe, I never wanted you to go out that way because I respected you so much. And I went, man, that's Lawrence Taylor saying that. And for all of the pretty boy Theisman, he's got other attention in media, whatever. One thing you had to say about him, he was one of the toughest people that ever played the game. He took the hits. Yeah.

Mike Richman: He was absolutely one of the tough. He wore single bar face mask. I mean one game, that eighty two game that they beat the Giants in the

Jack Moore: Giants, right?

Mike Richman: regular season to to qualify for the playoffs, he had half of his tooth knocked out in that game. And

Jack Moore: Byron Hunt.

Mike Richman: he he continued playing right.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: I don't know if yeah, yeah, maybe I think it was one of the other guys. But it was one one of the other linebackers. But he also he threw that block

Jack Moore: Okay, maybe.

Mike Richman: that yeah. He threw that block that opened Joe Washington to to run for a touchdown that game. He was really, really tough. And also going back to the seventies, I want to say that Marchabroda and Edward Ben Williams wanted Theizman to be the starter after the seventy-four season, but Allen refused to do so. And one of the things I

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: theorized about in my biography on George Allen is what if Allen had gone to him sooner to be the starter? Because in seventy five, Theizman was just returning punts. He was he w that's all he was doing. Seventy-six, he he played a little more. And seventy-seven, even more. He was rotating with with Kilmer at that point. But but what if Allen had had put a more emphasis on Joe Thizeman earlier in his career? I said, would that Allen, would those Allen coach Redskins have been a better team at that point? would would Theisman had developed earlier as a as an NFL quarterback? Because it he didn't really develop until the late seventies when Joe Walton was the offensive coordinator under Pardee. He really he and Walton really hit it off. And Walton made him a great, great quarterback. And then and then 'cause they had that seventy nine season where where Theisman had had pretty good numbers and if they of course beat out the Cowboys in this season any regular season game, then they're gonna win the NFC East. but that was just really bad luck that day. And then of course when Gibbs, you know, became the Redskins coach, that one That's when Theisman became an elite quarterback. But I I asked, you know, what if Allen had had made him the starter after the seventy four season and just focused on Theizman a lot more and and you know, said this he's gonna be our guy, instead of, you know, continuing with Kilmer. What it w it was a big what if in my opinion. What would have happened?

Jack Moore: No, I I agree. I think he has I don't know if you call it a strange career, but Eisman was kind of that guy on the bench behind Jergensen one year, Jergensen and Kilmer. Then you're like you say it's revolving doors, then he finally gets the job and now he's with Pardee. And he's what thirty-two by the time he's like thirty-two years old by the time Gibbs gets there. And then he is house on fire. He wins the eighty three MVP. He's a dude. I mean he he becomes kind of the face of the league in some in some level. And then the backslide starts. You know, eighty four by, you know, eighty-four, they've slipped to losing to the Bears, and then eighty five, the wheels are coming off the cart, he gets injured. I don't know how much longer he would have lasted trajectory wise the way he was going. It was definitely a downhill slide. But I'll always be a fan. And he did have that brief moment kind of in his career where he was really the guy. He he became a superstar. And you know, hey he won us our first Super Bowl.

Mike Richman: Right. He blossomed at the right time. He bl he blossomed

Jack Moore: He did. He

Mike Richman: at that exact right time. He was still in the prime of his career when Gibbs came here, in my opinion. I mean he was yeah, he was his early thirties, thirty one, thirty two, but but he was a tremendous athlete. But they

Jack Moore: Great athlete. Great athlete. Yeah.

Mike Richman: also one of the things that the that the party coach Redskins taught him is not to to stay in the pocket more. So I think that's one of the things

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Mike Richman: that that Alan really disliked about him. That he was that he was unpredictable. in what he would do in the pocket, that he would scramble too much. And of course he was known as a scrambly quarterback at at Notre Dame. And so that was one of the things that that Alan was asking, you do I want this guy back in the pocket there? He'll he'll just start running and, you know, you know, maybe a still a sack or, you know, gain a few yards or whatever. But that's not what I want in my quarterback. So but when when by the time Gibbs was here, he was he was much more of a pocket passer. Although he could run, he could run at times

Jack Moore: He could.

Mike Richman: and he he did He did have some pretty good gains.

Jack Moore: He did and but yeah, I definitely think we'd all agree that he became a more disciplined within the structure. Yeah, and he would run if he had to, but and they well and that's another thing that you know the genius to give. They did a lot of controlled rolls where they would just kind of roll out and everybody in the offensive line would roll to create the cup in another area and he'd sit behind that and They did a lot of stuff, a lot of misdirection stuff. They were just good. They were good at what they did. And Deisman fit that system. He was mobile. He would he could definitely shake things up. Okay. We have been quite a bit of time here. So I've had on Mike Richman. We have Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia out. And Mike. Tell everybody where you can be reached. I got here Mike at Mike Richmond Journalist.com. People can reach you there, they can fli okay.

Mike Richman: That is correct. My my w right, that's my email, Mike at Mike Richmondjournalist dot com. My website is mike richmond journalist dot com. and go to my website, you can get an author autographed copy of the book,

Jack Moore: Okay.

Mike Richman: of all my books. My most recent book, the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, and all my books are available there. I'll give you my my John Hancock and but they're also available in you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, the particularly the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can get them there as well. one thing, Jack, I wanna actually correct. you were right about Byron Hunt. He was the Giants linebacker that crashed in on on Thysman that knocked his half of his tooth out in that nineteen eighty two game.

Jack Moore: Okay, well appreciate it. Yeah, I I thought it was Byron Hunt, but what I remember about it is a lot of things. that's when Mosley extended and broke the record for most consecutive field goals to win the game. And then Fizman

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: famously is on the sideline with Mosley, and CBS was like, Joe, big game and all. Hey, check this out. You know, he's lifting his lip up and he's like where his tooth got knocked out. But I had a t yeah, to the demonstrates.

Mike Richman: He said, Where you they where you going? J it was Jack Buck, Joe Buck's father. He said, Where you where you going, Joe? He's after you take a shower. He said, Jack, I I I think I need to go to the dentist.

Jack Moore: Yeah. Well, you know, when Gibbs told the story that he came to the sideline and he's looking at him, he's spitting blood and his tooth scone, and and Gibbs is like he he's not even phased. And again, again, when I when I made that point about Lawrence Taylor, you could see it's a man moment between two warriors. And he said, Dude, I never wanted to see you get hurt that way because I respected you. And I'm thinking,

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: if Lawrence Taylor respected you, And and you know it well and and Theisman made the point, and I've made it to others. It kind of ruined both of their careers in a certain sense, because it ruined it in the sense that Theisman becomes forever not an MVP that won a super bowl. he's a guy that got his leg broken in half, right? That's that guy. And I think Taylor wore this ferocious player, and brother, you know this from being around it. And I say this to somebody. I hate that younger people like, he was that crazy man that broke Thysman's leg in half. I'm like, well, first of all, he draped across his shoulders, fell down awkwardly on his leg. It wasn't a designed hit to do injury. And then I thought about

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: it. I was doing a show with now. I said, tell me one time you saw Lawrence Taylor cheap shot somebody. Can you think of one? I never could.

Mike Richman: I c I can't think I can I I do believe though that Lawrence Taylor is remembered for much more than just breaking Joe Thysman's leg, which of course was not right.

Jack Moore: No, no, I don't d right, but he's had he's had to live with it though, yeah. Yeah.

Mike Richman: Of course he's had to live with yeah. But I mean the eighty six season the very next year, he had had a great, great year. That was the year that we talked about where he he embarrassed Joe Jacoby and other players as well, and they won the Super

Jack Moore: Where's the MVP?

Mike Richman: Bowl that year. Giants, yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, he was just great. I I but I do think that people do remember him, particularly Redskins fans remember him for being on Thysner's back and you know, putting all that pressure on breaking his leg. And I think Garrett Reasons or another Giants linebacker was at the bottom. so but yeah, but but Lawrence Taylor, I mean he he was just a player that the league had never seen before in the nineteen eighties. I mean, with what he did. Even that ninety nineteen ninety team, that Giants team that won the Super Bowl, he was great on that team. So yeah, but he he's remembered for for so many things. He transformed linebacker position. The league had never nobody had ever seen a player like that with that type of talent at that position. He w he was just you know, and other other players over the years have have tried to emulate Lavar Arrington, when he came into the league in two thousand, he he you know, he wore number fifty-six, he proclaimed to be the

Jack Moore: That's right.

Mike Richman: next Lawrence Taylor. Yeah. It's but it's really really sad what happened to Arrington after the the two thousand five season. I mean, I I know Greg Williams and Gibbs were not happy with him that year.

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: They thought he was he was not following instructions, he was out of position. But I think toward the end he was coming

Jack Moore: Too much for a freelancer.

Mike Richman: on. Right. He he had an interception in that playoff game against Tampa Bay. So he was coming on then. And but unfortunately he you know, he left the team after that season. I think he had an in and out with he with Di with Snyder. They were at each other's throats about something contractual. Right,

Jack Moore: That's correct too. That's correct too.

Mike Richman: yeah. So and then he went to the Giants the following year. He got injured that year. I I believe he never played football again. So

Jack Moore: Achilles tendon. No, and there's and I've listened to him. Again, I'm a big fan of Lauren of LeVar Arrington. I have all his jerseys. I I I was a big fan. I was so excited when he came in. Penn State guy, Pittsburgh, you know, grew up in that area. And not that I did, but he did. And and you know, I was excited because I thought he was a great figure. And I do remember hearing him on a podcast where he said he was in the works to try to come back to Washington after the Achilles tendon and he was in a motorcycle accident. But he had like relocated back to

Mike Richman: Yes, I heard about that.

Jack Moore: DC and then it was over, then there was no coming back. But I think behind the scenes he was trying to mend things back in Washington to potentially come back. And I I always thought it was more of a Greg Williams thing that Williams had I don't know how much about Gibbs, whatever, but all he did end up having an ugliness with Snyder, and then it was kind of like, you know, and and there was there was some stuff that was going on there. I think he he wasn't Totally fitting into the program. But all I think about is they had Champ Bailey, they had Sean Taylor, and they had LeBar Arrington as drafted guys. You know, and of course, Champ Bailey's traded away. Arrington has his time. And of course, Taylor tragically dies. But man, those were three super impactful defensive players. Champ Bailey's one of the best players I've ever seen. I saw him live and it was like, wow. Because he could run. He was.

Mike Richman: Yeah. Well that's another question. Should you know, who made who got the better of that trade, you know, Champ Bailey for for Clinton Portis? 'Cause the the Broncos also got a draft pick out of that trade who

Jack Moore: Well, I like Portis. I had heard some stuff

Mike Richman: they it was a running back who had a couple of one thousand yard seasons. So so y

Jack Moore: Yeah. But I do think I'd heard some kind of stuff. I think Champ Bailey wanted out of town. I think he really wanted

Mike Richman: It could have been, yeah.

Jack Moore: yeah, I I don't think he was particularly I I just saw him recently on an interview and he was kinda getting into a little bit of Snyder stuff about, you know, I'm young, I'm a rookie, so when I get my first contract, it is what it is, and now's we're kinda like I'm kinda playing pretty well, you know, making pro bowls and it's like some funky stuff was going on. And he just won it out of town. He goes to Denver's Hall of Famer. But what a player.

Mike Richman: He's he's still considered a Redskins Hall of Famer, though, because I think if it still exists or maybe changed, but previously a player had to play at least three seasons for a team. and if that player later got inducted into the Hall of Fame, that that player was considered a Hall of Famer for that particular team that he played at least three seasons for. So which he did with the Redskins, yeah.

Jack Moore: Okay, yeah.

Mike Richman: So yeah. But but that's a that's a question that people still ask today, who got the better of that trade? Because Clinton Portis I mean he's a second all time leading rusher in Redskins history. He had some great seasons, four,

Jack Moore: He did.

Mike Richman: five, six, or six, I think he tailed off a little bit because of the injuries. But seven he had a great season. eight, he had a fourteen hundred yard season. So yeah, but that's very interesting. But it's it's really unfortunate what happened to LeVar Arrington. He was he was a great, great player. and they but they had there were some other players they had on that defense that were really good. Ryan Clark. Cornelius Griffin,

Jack Moore: Okay.

Mike Richman: I think, was on the defensive line. Ronaldo Wynn, I think, was on that team. He was a pretty good player. Yeah. Phillip

Jack Moore: Was he was Philip Daniels.

Mike Richman: Daniels was a really good defensive end. Yeah.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and they had the kid L Lamar Marshall was playing the middle. He was a really f kind of funny body type for that. He's like 6'4 and about 220, I think, 230, but he played well. He played well in the middle, and they picked up DeMarcus Washington. And, you know, he was a good player.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: They picked him up from the Colts, I think. and Spring.

Mike Richman: They didn't have Smoot on that team.

Jack Moore: Smoot, yes, was he was

Mike Richman: They did not have he wasn't on a team.

Jack Moore: he was on the team. No, no, but not by that time because by that time,

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Sean's wearing twenty one and Smoot's gone to Minnesota, right, 'cause he gave up the twenty one, or he got

Mike Richman: But he came he came back in seven, I believe. He came back here

Jack Moore: That's correct.

Mike Richman: in seven.

Jack Moore: They came back and wore a different number and then Sean Taylor passed away or w was tragically killed.

Mike Richman: But but Greg Williams hadn't done a an amazing job with that defense, which is was one of the better defenses in the NFL that year. And actually

Jack Moore: no question. No question.

Mike Richman: Brunel Brunel had a really good season too. he just got injured, I believe it was in the Giants game, the next to last regular season game. Yeah.

Jack Moore: I was there. Yeah, that's the one that that's when Ramsey came in and threw it it seemed like I mean the stands, it seemed like kind of a blindly downfield and Moss intercepted the pass in route and just took off and scored. and then Shockey,

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: I remember, had a famous fumble where he just kinda gave up on the play and Washington recovered it and set up another score. And, you know, that

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: was Eli Manning's what second year in the league? Yeah, it would have been his like his second year. But I was at that game.

Mike Richman: Right. Right, he came in four. But yeah,

Jack Moore: Yeah, so

Mike Richman: I mean Brunel, he was having a really good year. And if not for that injury, I he would have played much better in the postseason. And they they may have even beaten Seattle in the second round game. if you I'm sure you remember that dropped interception by interception by Carlos Rogers. I mean, I think they were leading three nothing

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah. He dropped a lot.

Mike Richman: at that time. They would have gone up ten nothing. And

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: I with that defense that they had, who knows? I I think they would have beaten Seattle. Carlos Rogers, that ball was right in his breadbasket and he dropped it. He was like 20 yards from touchdown. It would have definitely been a pick six. So that was I mean, that was just bad, bad luck, which a lot of which we're seeing with the team today. But I guess history repeats itself. But but yeah, that was

Jack Moore: Yeah, it's It's a tough

Mike Richman: That was interesting. What I mean Gibbs g Gibbs was able to to make some winners out of those guys. yeah.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: The ten and six seas season in two thousand five and winning a playoff game and then the nine and seven year in in two thousand seven. He there's something about the guy. I mean, he's just a he's been a winner every place he's gone in in you know his in his professional life. And you know, NASCAR is a perfect example. He's he's won NASCAR championships and yeah, he just he knows. He surrounds himself with the right people. The he has said that over the years as being a major component of of building a winner. It's it's done wonders for him.

Jack Moore: Well, I think another thing I you hear a lot of players say is he's honest. And he's had his moments where, you know, Reggins has passed his prime and it's you know, of course Theisman made it easier or or this th Theisman situation became easier because he had to leave, but he n he he never struggled or he may have struggled with it personally, but he he didn't have a hard time moving people out that needed to be moved out at the end of their career. 'Cause I think they so respected him. And I think for the most part, transitioning to the next group of guys. But you know, you opened, you mentioned the thing about Coleman. I thought about it the other day. Kaufman's been dead now, I think, for a decade. Rich Millot just passed away a few years ago. Now Monty Coleman has passed away. And on the day Jurgensen

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: died, Barry Wilburn died in a fire in his home. Yeah. So yeah.

Mike Richman: Fire, yes. that was so sad. Yeah. I was

Jack Moore: And so you think

Mike Richman: very, very sad.

Jack Moore: about all these guys from that era, but all of those linebackers that were on that Super Bowl team, I think other than Olkowitz, I don't know that, you know, there might have been Pete Cronin, there might have been a couple of other guys in on that team,

Mike Richman: Harry Kubin.

Jack Moore: Larry Kubin, right, but they were like more special teams guys, but from the starters,

Mike Richman: Special names, guys, yeah.

Jack Moore: everybody's gone. Everybody's already gone. And and that's hard for me to absorb sometimes too. How long ago Super Bowl seventeen actually was? I'm just like that seemed like yesterday afternoon, but then like, No, that's forty plus years ago and you're like, it couldn't have been forty forty plus years? Yeah, it just seems weird to think it's been that long then, but hey.

Mike Richman: Even a young guy from the Allen era, Mike Thomas, he was only a rookie in nineteen seventy five. He passed away a few years ago. Pete Waisaki, he passed away. He had cancer.

Jack Moore: Harold McClinton was not long after his career. Wasn't he? I think he was helping somebody on the side of the road. Yeah.

Mike Richman: He was in a car accident. Yeah, he was helping somebody on the side of the road change a tire and a and a car hit him on the side

Jack Moore: And got hit. Yeah.

Mike Richman: of the road. Yeah, that's how he died. Well, a lot of people came to get blood. A lot of his teammates came to get blood was he in the he was in the hospital. he was a beloved player and really unfortunate what

Jack Moore: Beloved, no doubt.

Mike Richman: happened to him. Yes. But but yeah, but I'm just trying to uphold the history of the team. you know, I don't want these guys to be forgotten. I wanna I want it to be remembered what they did and they played for a storied franchise and and I want the people, the younger generation in the DC area and elsewhere to to know about these guys, to remember them and to know how how great they were and you know, whether they won Super Bowls or not. But they still could have been impact players or or whatever. But so I'm just trying to, you know, uphold the tradition of the team.

Jack Moore: You know, we're we're of a certain I think we're probably pretty much right all the same age. So I think one thing that if we're fair as kids, we go from the Jurgensen, like I said, lighting it up with Sonny. I mean, with Sonny lighting it up with Charlie Taylor and Bobby Mitchell, Jerry Smith. Jerry Smith's another guy I think should be in the Hall of Fame, sixty touchdowns. When he left the league, he was the highest touchdown for a tight end. He was a different level player. Six three, two five, two fifteen, maybe like playing tight end, but it was different era. But we saw that, and I think part for me, part of what made the Gibbs years even extra special is Sonny and Sam are in the booth with Frank Herzog, who I loved on the air.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: And then you got Charlie Taylor down on the field as a wide receiver's coach, so he's touching that, the Super Bowl victories. You got Bobby Mitchell in the front office. So some of those people that we loved in the 60s that weren't as successful are getting a taste of being part of it when Joe Gibbs turns it around. And honestly,

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: even though there was a slide in the 90s that you cannot pin on Snyder, I just don't think you could do more damage to all of this stuff that means something to us historically than Snyder did. It's just just so much bad that was done, even again, resulting in the loss of the name. Whatever party played in that could have you know, it's just bad. And I I think that's what Yeah.

Mike Richman: One of the w one of the things I'm in sorry.

Jack Moore: You know, go ahead.

Mike Richman: I just want to point out, I mean, I I make this this remark all the time about Snyder. And and yeah, I I agree with you. I mean, it was just he made made horrible decisions throughout his ownership era, and he he really orchestrated the the downfall of the team in the you know 21st century. But there were several circumstances that were out of his control. Number one, the death of Sean Taylor. I think that that that

Jack Moore: sure.

Mike Richman: team itself. Taylor was a player that could single-handedly change the complexion of a game. And to lose him, I mean, that was a major loss. And the injury to Alex Smith in the 2018 season. That was something that Snyder had nothing to do with. And I'm pretty sure that Radsk's team in 2018, they were 6-3 heading into that game against Houston, where Smith had the injury. I'm pretty sure they would have made the playoffs that year, at least as a wildcard team. So Snyder had nothing to do with. with that either. So I I

Jack Moore: No, I no Mike.

Mike Richman: I d I do qualify that.

Jack Moore: No, Mike, I I agree with you and I think that's a fair qualification. But like I'm saying, you got a guy coming in, it's a coaching carousel, it's mismanagement of certain players, it's just a lot. And what didn't he didn't he go to court one time on the poor old lady that couldn't afford the seats anymore? It's it's just all of that. Yeah, it's all that stuff. Right, it's embarrassment.

Mike Richman: Something like that, yeah. It was it was all of these embarrassing moves. It was all

Jack Moore: The front office stuff that

Mike Richman: it was all money it was all money ja it was all b he was he was thinking of money. He was thinking of he didn't want to be

Jack Moore: The cheerleaders on the island what was going on with the Bru Yeah, it yeah.

Mike Richman: He didn't want to be taken advantage of financially. Well, who knows? Who knows who was at fault for that? But he didn't want to be t he he wanted to make money, which is why he initially charged the fans to attend training camp. He was losing he had immediately lost sight of of the people that he should be supporting and that he he should not alienate. And it you know, these were decisions that he made and he paid the price for it, literally and and figuratively. but if the team had won We'd be talking about something different. The situation

Jack Moore: No doubt.

Mike Richman: with RG three, the situation with RG three after the two thousand twelve season in the playoffs, was that Snyder's doing? Was that the doc the team doctors doing? Was that Mike Shanahan? I mean, that that if RG three had continued on the pace that he was on in two thousand twelve with the numbers that he was putting up, if they continued in the same offensive setup, if he hadn't had the injury in that

Jack Moore: Well

Mike Richman: playoff game as the Packers, How good could that team have been? I mean, defenses in the NFL, they catch up to offenses quickly. So, I mean, they may have stopped RG three in the ensuing years if he even if he hadn't had the injury. But I mean, he was he he set he put up record setting numbers in the two thousand twelve season. So, you know, who knows what would have happened if he hadn't had that injury in the playoff game as against the Packers.

Jack Moore: Well, I think the conventional wisdom is now I've heard sh I've heard Mike Shanahan's story. I've heard him tell it. They did a type I was at the cowboy game, I saw the read option working, I I saw you know Morris get 200 yards, and I saw one thing that he was a ball header, he already had the knee brace on, but RG three was a phenomenal handler of the football. Like you couldn't see where it was going, what he was doing. But Shanahan made the argument, I think it's true, had Griffin in the game against the Ravens not turned the ball back into the middle of the field and taking the hit he did on his knee, which was they get out of bounds, but he decides to turn it back up to get more. He wasn't taking a lot of hits in that offense. They were putting him in pretty safe environments, and he was susceptible to injury, there's no question. Given the body type, he'd already had a previous knee injury. But the story is he talked to He was kind of in Snyder's ear about things were going to change. Mike Shanahan said in an interview I saw that he comes in prior to the 2013 season and he said, The following things are unacceptable. I'm not running your offense anymore. I think I'm Aaron Rodgers. I'm going to drop back and throw it. And Shanahan's like, dude, that's not who you are. And he felt like the term unacceptable, he was getting coached from other channels. He said it was a term that Snyder often used. I don't know the inner workings of all that, but I know the only way that Griffin was going to be successful is to follow what the Shanahans had him doing. He there was no way he was going to be a drop back passer and read the field and

Mike Richman: Well the injury played into that as well. Right. The injury played into that. He could not be a pocket passer. But I'm but

Jack Moore: Right. Right.

Mike Richman: I'm saying if he hadn't had the injury, he would have retained that mobility to to run a a lot more than he was able to. So that that's all I'm saying. That that

Jack Moore: Right. But I think it yeah, yeah.

Mike Richman: injury just just changed just changed the whole trajectory of his career. but

Jack Moore: No doubt about it, no doubt about it.

Mike Richman: but I remember that play against the Ravens too. He did turn it up the middle. Halodi Nada, I think, was the the player on the Ravens that hit him.

Jack Moore: Yeah. That's not it was the one yeah. Yeah. And it was a r it was a freak thing. You get sp spun in the air and it's just his knee hit and that's how it went down. But you know, it's just

Mike Richman: They were down by eight points at the time and he was trying to get he was trying to, you know, get that that last touchdown, two point conversion to you know, to tie the game. So, I don't necessarily blame him for that. There were other situations where he didn't know how to slide. He he was just it was very awkward when he went down.

Jack Moore: No, he could not slide. No.

Mike Richman: He couldn't have slide and remember a game against the Lions in twenty thirteen. He went forward instead of sliding and he fumbled the ball. And that's not not considered a situation where the I mean the ball was still in play at that point. So the Lions recovered the ball. So yeah. And also prior to that twenty thirteen season, not only did he say that that I'm going to be a pocket passer, but his father came out and said, talking about being meddlesome,

Jack Moore: Exactly.

Mike Richman: his father said, I don't want my I don't want my son to run. So

Jack Moore: Yeah, and that's it's kind of a league when mommy and daddy are coming in to tell people dictating how their son's gonna play in the league. I don't know, that's it's a product of the way things are

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: today too, though. I mean there is a travel ball mentality, it's in every sport, parents have a much more of a voice in things. But yeah, if the guy's going into his second year in the league and he was a second overall pick and mommy and daddy are saying what he will do and won't do. But again, all these things happen under a certain ownership, you know. And and I just

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: think that there was a lot I just think prestige wise, I think in the Jack Kent Cook years, I think probably Edward Bennett Williams and and even in in people didn't know the same things about George Preston Marshall in nineteen sixty eight that they know today. So I mean they didn't see it the same way. So I don't think the R I do think the Redskins from, like you say, post World War Two into the sixties We're kind of considered losers. There's no doubt about it. And I think the lack of integration played a big part in that. Everybody else is integrated. They're not. And people have to remember too, the AFL had a lot to do with integration too, because once the AFL comes in 1960, they're going to the historically black schools and they're getting these great players because they need football players.

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: And that's why they catch up to the NFL, I think realistically pretty fast. And it, you know, it's it's it's a trickle down or it it widens out the the more and more. Black players are getting an opportunity to play. Washington didn't have a good history. And I'll tell you from the region of the world I grew up, I and I went to a school that's probably 50% black, 50% white. And a lot of my black friends were Cowboys fans. And I remember talking to folks that were generations ahead of me, and they're like, they wouldn't integrate the team. I'll never be a Redskin fan. That was a thing. That was a thing in the Washington, D.C. area. And you know, and Bobby

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: Mitchell said when he took the job in '62. He kind of had the weight of the world on him. Because he said, I got as much heat from you know black folks saying you better do well. Because, you know, you're the you're you're you're now the black player, the face of the franchise type of thing. So there's so there's there's some history that the team has, but I do think, you know, that's not necessarily totally positive, but I do think from George Allen, even Lombardi, I'd say from Lombardi, Lombardi brought legitimacy, there's no doubt. the fact that Vince Lombardi

Mike Richman: Right.

Jack Moore: was the coach. His passing was tragic. But George Allen, God bless him, he changed the trajectory of the team going forward. Followed by a party, didn't do a horrible job. And then Gibbs and then, you know, we have what we have from there, but I just think in this day with name changes and battles over, you know, how much of the old tradition can you get on the uniform or not get who are you going to offend? It's just all Noise that's not really leading. I I just think they're in free fall right now as well. I do. I I I don't think it's clicking. I think we're gonna get another coaching change and who knows what happens next.

Mike Richman: Over the past eighteen games, they are three fourteen and one. there's a point differential during that period of minus one sixty eight. I mean, it's now or never. I mean, if they don't beat the Eagles on November first, com coming back to Northwest Stadium, if they don't win that game, this the season is done. And because I'm saying it they're still alive in a sense, 'cause the NFC East is so bad. But if they can't

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Mike Richman: beat the Eagles who are reeling themselves right now, I mean Quinn's gotta go. And whether it's gonna be during the season or at the end of the season. He just looks so lost out there in his decision making. And we've seen it in the past two games, number one with the baffling call at the end of the Giants game, and now in the Monday night game against the 49ers, where you know that fourth down, did Quinn know it was fourth down? did he did he want the team to to actually you know why did he go for it at that point? And then after Daniel Stewart out of bounds, he said, did he save field goal? Did he did he want to kick a field goal at that point? Well, sorry, you know, that's the you know, the ball's turned over to the 49ers. Can't do it at that point. So he he just looks really, really lost out there. He's he's just not in control. And they they may there may be some miracle that happens this year because the NFC's is so bad and

Jack Moore: Right.

Mike Richman: you know, they may get back on track with the winner of the Eagles and they are approaching the softer part of their schedule. So any anything can happen. But I do also wanna to mention that because you mentioned the post World War Two era. See, what we saw in the Snyder era, it was really i you know, you could compare it to that era w which was was was so bad and they were a perennial doormat. And really that's the way the Redskins were in the Snyder era too, but it's much more magnified today. You know, we have the twenty four seven media and

Jack Moore: More sources, yeah.

Mike Richman: and Snyder was an easy guy to pick on as well. So well Marshall was picked on too. I mean he had his adversaries such as Shirley Povich, Washington Post columnist and And others in the media, you know, Snyder was just a you know, he was on the firing line so often because of the dis decisions that he made.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and that thing about the post-World War Two thing, the other thing that was starting to happen. I mean, I think WTA WTVR that I mentioned earlier in Richmond was nineteen forty-eight. That's kind of the magical year, 48, 49, 50 was when a lot of local networks began to come on to taking on the the national affiliates. And what George Preston Marshall did was ran a network of everybody in the South was watching the Redskins. And that was in the time That they weren't really good, but that was your only choice was the Redskin Network. And that's why, of course, he fight fought the Cowboys coming into the league, and then you know they buy the rights to hail to the Redskins, you know, that whole story. But I think that was part of the downfall of the team is that George Preston Marshall is getting in part what he wants in that period from forty six through nineteen sixty. He's establishing a television network that's probably making him pretty rich or it's working. And they're putting a product on the field

Mike Richman: Yeah.

Jack Moore: that people Yeah.

Mike Richman: Yeah, I mean the southern US was his territory. I mean, they had busloads of fans coming up from the south to to DC to watch games

Jack Moore: Yes.

Mike Richman: at Griffith Stadium, later DC and RFK Stadium. Yeah, I mean he had that whole region. He he he basically did get what he wanted, but you know, he just didn't go about other than the you know, radio and television network and other forms of entertainment, he just didn't go about things the right way. But and you know, there's kind of an analogy with the Snyder era too.

Jack Moore: Yeah. Mike, please tell everybody what you want to say going out. Again, please go over Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia. Out on sale starting October twenty. Anything else you'd like to say about how people can reach you and what other projects you have.

Mike Richman: Just go to my website, Mike Richmanjournalist.com, so you can get all my books, including my newest, the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia. but this is my fifth book that I've written, The Redskins Encyclopedia, the Washington Redskins Football Vault, Joe Gibbs and Enduring Legacy, and George Allen of Football Life, and now the Washington Pro Football Encyclopedia, Redskins and Commanders. And currently working on a biography on Sonny Jergensen. So that will hit the shelves in twenty twenty eight. I'm very excited about that project.

Jack Moore: I'm very excited to see that too. Absolutely. Once again, this has been more to consider. Had on today Mike Richman, the historian for the Washington Redskins slash that other name. But yeah, we're we're Redskins fans, okay? A little bit of Braves nineteen thirty-two, but you got it. Hope to see you again very soon. We'll continue to do Washington Redskins history. Thank you, Michael, for being on.

Mike Richman: Thank you very much, Jack. I really like it. Like I like the interview.