The True Story of July 4th — History, Philosophy & the Fight for Freedom

Moore To Consider: Welcome to another edition of Moore to Consider. Jack in Charles. Okay, brother. All right. So we did a show recently. I'm gonna open with this just because I think it's actually interesting for whatever reason. And then we're gonna get into we did this last show about Trump's attempt to set up White House and other related celebrations of the 250th anniversary of the signing of the declaration, which

Charles Hundley Jnr: Charles. and

Moore To Consider: Wanna get in first the true date of the Independence Day? And I heard this years ago, did some more research. Independence Day is widely celebrated. I mean, it is celebrated on the fourth of July, but the Continent Continental Congress actually voted for independence on July second. This vote marked the formal decision to separate from British rule. And John Adams believed that this date would be remembered as the true anniversary of American independence. I already told his wife that, you know, something.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Mm-hmm.

Moore To Consider: Continental Congress, July 2nd. Adams belief he expressed in a letter to his wife that July 2nd would be celebrated with pomp and parade and should be recognized as a significant day in American history. And then he went on that thing to be somewhat shocked that July 4th came in instead. So on July 4th, the Congress adopted the final wording of the declaration, which is why the date is officially recognized. So apparently there's a signing on the second. Then there's some edits done in the next forty-eight hours, which creates the July fourth. The actual signing of the declaration, the final signing did not occur till second August, two August 1776. Yeah. So there's Congress voted for independence on July second, final wording July fourth, and final. So I'm I'm incorrect. They did not sign it on the second and then a a change the language. They voted for independence on the second. Then they

Charles Hundley Jnr: ⁓ wow.

Moore To Consider: Did the final wording on the 4th and August 2nd, they actually got together and signed it. While 4 of July is a date celebrated, the vote for independence on July 2nd is significant. Now, if it is the 2nd, then the death of John Adams, second president of the United States, and Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States, that throws that whole thing off because they both die 4 July 1826, exactly 50 years after this. July fourth, seventeen seventy six. So if it had been a celebration of the July second instead of the fourth, that would have screwed up that whole thing. But go ahead, talk to me.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yeah, Monroe died on on the Fourth of July also. Yeah. 1831. Yeah. Yeah. But he didn't sign it, so.

Moore To Consider: He did. He did. And I'm trying to remember, I've heard 1830. So five years later. Okay. Now, being from Virginia, I've seen I think of pretty much everything. I've stood in the stall where Secretariat, okay, spent his ⁓ his yearling year where Reaver Ridge was the year before. So I've been there. Once you've been there in Virginia, but I've been to the Capitol a million times. But I didn't go to Monticello till about ten years ago for the first time and it went back. Two years ago and did it again. So I second time in, I went and actually did the house tour. It wasn't what I thought. All I was heard was Jefferson's greatness. Now I get it. But the house is a little simpler than I thought on the inside. It was interesting, though. He had a little pond right outside where he would take fresh fish and drop it in the pond and they'd have it for dinner. You know, and plantation or those type of setups were very much their own city. They had a blacksmith on on grounds, you know, they have all these different things, a kitchen, you know how it works. So it was a it really interesting little city in itself, Bonticello. But I'm in there and this lady's talking about the famous, hey, Adams and Jefferson died the same day. And I'm standing there in this room and I go, whereabouts? She goes, you see that bed right there? And I'm I'm five feet from it. That bed, I'm like, that bed? She goes, that's where he died. I'm like, he died right there. No, she's like, yes. And it's this little built into the wall little bed, you know, with the little canopy type thing on it. And like, wow, he died right there.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Mm-hmm. All right.

Moore To Consider: And I want to say, God, now I'll get it wrong either way. I think Adams died first. Jefferson, they're like three hours apart. But you can remember which one was first. I can't remember. ⁓ Jefferson died first. I know they both are supposedly mentioning the other as they die. Like Adam's like, well, the, you know, the the the Republic lives on, Jefferson lives. And Jefferson's like, hey, how's John doing? You know, like they're both talking about each other. Now one was 90 and the other one was 83.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yeah, I think Jefferson died for us, Yeah. Right. Hmm.

Moore To Consider: And ⁓ drink red wine. Yeah, Adams was older, but you drink red wine because I understand that's a big reason why ⁓ Jefferson lived as long as he did. He had a glass of red wine every day. It's supposed to be a lot of great properties in that. So that's our alcohol moment for for you know, for advice. But Jefferson did something right. He lived that long. And Adams, hey, he lived to be 90, so he was doing something as well. And they'd had their falling out.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Adams is older, yeah.

Moore To Consider: Politically, they were horrible rivals in the early part of the 19th century. And then they started writing each other again. And they pretty much made up, I guess would be the best way to put it. So I'm teaching a class years ago at the in a you know publicly funded Virginia community college system school. And I would open all my criminal justice classes with. I just like, you know, me, I just get up there at the beginning of class. I'm like, okay, we're going to study criminal justice.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yes. Thank goodness.

Moore To Consider: So we're going to talk about. Here's the first question I have. By what authority? And they all looked at me sideways. What do you mean? I'm like, by what authority? Some some guy in a uniform, guy or gal, with a badge on, pulls you over in the middle of the night, says you did w why do you pull over? Because I got a gun in a bag. Okay. But by what authority do they do this? So I'd ask these authority questions, and then I would jump into the declaration. I'd get into the declaration and say, Who is Jefferson of all the great philosophers really quoting? ⁓ who's he giving some credit to? ⁓ this isn't new stuff. He was very well educated. So were you know, and I made this point before being from Virginia. I remember a speaker coming to to Old Dominion when I was there, and he goes, Hey, if you're from Virginia, remember you got the father of the country, you have the author of the declaration pretty much, and you got the guy that pretty much wrote the Constitution. And then George Mason, of course, wrote a lot of great works as well. But it is true. That's the trifecta. You got George Washington, you got Jefferson, and you got James Madison. That's pretty strong as far as the formation of the country, right? So the that's a dream team, right? And it's yeah. So we're from Virginia, so we get that, Jamestown and all the like and all that. And Secretariat, once again, let's give some love to Secretariat because he's the greatest race sports of all time. Maybe the greatest athlete of all time. All right. So I would read this, and the students would be, he said that, and this was a crazy thing. They're publicly educated students generally.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yeah. as a dream team.

Moore To Consider: I would get a homeschool kid every once in a while and they would just quote it out to me without even reading it. They just know it. But your M1A1 publicly educated kid had never heard any of this. They're like, they're kind of fascinated. Like Jefferson said that. I'm like, how do you not know this? Well, they didn't teach us that in school. In the public schools, they never covered the declaration. Like they that's not something they covered. But let's look at the language. When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands from which they're connected.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Okay.

Moore To Consider: them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. So I would ask the question, who's he writing to? And what would the students generally say?

Charles Hundley Jnr: I'm sure they would say he's writing to the king in England, but actually he's writing to the world.

Moore To Consider: That's you got it, brother. Exactly. I'd like they'd say, wasn't it George the Third? I'm like, in part. But he's saying we don't take this willy-nilly, we're going to disband from Great Britain. We gotta, we gotta justify this to the world. So now, of course, here's the important stuff that we've all heard. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their big C creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. So I'd ask them, which comes first, the rights or the government. According to Jefferson, you have the rights. Why are governments instituted? That, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

Charles Hundley Jnr: right. protect them.

Moore To Consider: And to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness. Prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes. And accordingly, all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. Than to write themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. So I'd ask the students, what's TJ saying if it goes a s goes awry?

Charles Hundley Jnr: At least they tried.

Moore To Consider: Well, how about start over? He's he he's in a form of declaration saying, hey, we're making a break. Hey, world, here's a justification for the break from Great Britain, from England. And in doing so, he's saying, and if we get it wrong, tear it up and do it again. Because you have the rights first and the government must protect those rights. And I I say that to say, what's kind of your garden variety view many Americans have of government? Don't say anything against the government.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Well, yeah, that too. Yes.

Moore To Consider: You know, some agencies are going to come around and they're going to say, you better shut that up. Well, the guy that wrote the founding document was kind of like, hey, when they're not getting it right, you have a duty to alter or abolish. Now, some would say he was just overly revolutionary. That's just kind of the nature of Jefferson. But that's pretty inspiring stuff. And of course, too, when he used the term ⁓ to secure these rights, governments are institute among men.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Right.

Moore To Consider: Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. He's directly quoting Locke, only Locke said life, liberty, property. And my understanding is Jefferson, like, I ain't gonna throw property in there because then people are gonna think the government owes them property. So he turned it into pursuit. You pursue by the labor of your own hands whatever property you can produce, knock yourself out. We're gonna protect those rights. Okay. What's your view on all of that? That opening.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Okay. ⁓ He's pretty much laying it out there that it's on you the citizen to do what's best for you and the government really is just there to help you or to protect your right to do it. Not to do it for you but to protect your right to do it.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. That's right. So, how lost are we then? I mean, from from that founding document, like what percent of the people do you think probably even well, first, again, and again, I'm not trying to be some elitist or say, but I don't think a lot of people really know what the wording is. And I don't really think they know a lot of the background of why Jefferson said it or what sources influenced him to say it. But don't you think a lot of people look at that?

Charles Hundley Jnr: We're very lost,

Moore To Consider: kind of in today's society and go, ⁓ well it's a racist document or it's a document of colonizers or whatever they're gonna say. Yeah. And they kind of missed the purpose.

Charles Hundley Jnr: course. It would be interesting, especially when it comes to the colonizers. Technically, the English were the colonizers and the Americans want to be left alone. There's a difference.

Moore To Consider: Well, Jefferson, he had stuff struck from it as well because he wanted to take on King George the Third about slavery. Like it's your fault, you know. And so ⁓ you know, okay. Now, that to me is a frustrating aspect of writing history. Excuse me, in presentism, I guess it is. You know, like we can look at back at people and make judgments of people 250 years ago when you're not in their shoes.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Hmm?

Moore To Consider: But you do have to kind of look at Western culture as abolishment of slavery, which was kind of unheard of in in world history. But he's writing about something, and he's kind of throwing at Great Britain, you're responsible. And others would say, nah, the colonies took took part in that too. Certainly part of their economy as they set it up. But just the writing, in a sense, like I've heard that there were struggles about Jefferson putting in the term all men are created equal. People were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop, stop, stop. So the Constitution becomes a great compromise. So in the things we've talked about, like the three fifths compromise and people twisted into even the Constitution recognized people of color as less than human or something like no, it was a it was a compromise. The abolitionists were the people, we've said this a million times. The abolitionists were the people like, no, the South doesn't get to count all of their slaves for purposes of representation in the House of Representatives. How they're like, okay, we'll come to a compromise. Is it an evil compromise? Is it less than I mean, I I mean, is it

Charles Hundley Jnr: All right.

Moore To Consider: Less than virtuous, sure. But the background of it was the South wanted to count slaves as full people for representation in Congress. And the North abolitionists did not. So the three-fifths compromise was just that. And when Milley says three-quarters of a human, again, he gets the fraction wrong. Now, I want you to hear the opening of this. The law, the law perverted, and the police powers of the state perverted along with it.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yes.

Moore To Consider: The law, I say, not only turned from its purpose, proper purpose, but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose. The law became the weapon of every kind of greed. Instead of checking crime, the law itself is guilty of the evils it's supposed to punish. If this is true, it's a serious fact, and moral duty requires me to call the attention to my fellow citizens to it. Life life is a gift from God. This was the most Transforming document I ever read. And I became aware of it probably 30 years ago. We hold it, we hold from God the gift of which include all others. This gift is life, physical, intellectual, and moral. But life cannot maintain itself alone. The creator of life has entrusted us with the responsibility of preserving, developing, perfecting it. In order that we may accomplish this, he's provided us with the collection of marvelous faculties. And he has put us in the midst of a variety of natural resources. By the application of our faculties to these natural resources, we convert them into products and use them. This process is necessary in order that life may run its appointed course. That is, excuse me, Frederick Bastiat, the law, 1848. He's writing at the exact same time as the Communist Manifesto. Sounds kind of Jeffersonian, doesn't it? He's dying of tuberculosis and knows it. He's dead in like a year.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yep.

Moore To Consider: And how about that he opens with that life is a gift from God and when governments begin to pervert the law for its purposes as against the people, there is no law basically.

Charles Hundley Jnr: I mean, he's 100 % correct. And yeah, you know, I'm looking for something.

Moore To Consider: Absolutely. It's pretty powerful stuff, isn't it?

Charles Hundley Jnr: ⁓ gosh.

Moore To Consider: Well, let me just throw this in real quick then. What is law? What does what does that mean, he says? It is the collective organization of the individual rights to lawful defense. Each of us has a natural right from God to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what other faculties but the extension of our individuality? What is law? What does what does that mean, he says? It is the collective organization of the individual rights to lawful defense. Each of us has a natural right from God to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what other faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by forces, person is liberty, is property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect those rights constantly. It's kind of back to the Ayn Rand, what is the function of government, twenty five words or less, and she said to protect individual rights, your life and property from force and fraud from others. And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by forces, person is liberty, is property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect those rights constantly. It's kind of back to the Ayn Rand, what is the function of government, twenty five words or less, and she said to protect individual rights, your life and property from force and fraud from others. That's it. kind of government right there. It's not to feed, clothe, educate, you know. That's it. That's kind of government right there. It's not to feed, clothe, educate, you know. Go ahead.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yes. Yay. Yes. Yay. You know, I do travel quite a bit and I remember this is 2019. In 2019, I'm in Rome and I love to go to churches and mosques and synagogues. And I'm in this church and I've been in a church before. But the churches in Rome are special. They just are. And it's lots of them. And I'm in the

Moore To Consider: Right. ⁓ I can imagine.

Charles Hundley Jnr: in how it's in English is the Church of St. Louis of the French. And I'm just looking at some of the paintings in there, looking at the ceiling, whatever. And I'm just standing there and I look down at my feet. and I see I'm standing at Frederick Bostiat's grave.

Moore To Consider: That's right, you told me that. You're standing right over his grave. Wow.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yeah, it was really bananas, man. It really was. And I'm like, holy smokes, man. You know, I took a picture of it, you know, but, you know, at the time I didn't know they was buried there. I had no idea. And then just to run across it like that was really weird.

Moore To Consider: Ouch. Yeah. Yeah, I've told s several souls since my discovery, and it was probably in my thirties. ⁓ if you want to read something, you want to kind of get a grasp of where I come from politically, read Bastiat, pretty much. So he was born thirty June, eighteen ⁓ one, dies twenty-four December, eighteen fifty. He was a French liberal, what they consider libertarian today, but it's it's just a classical liberal. ⁓

Charles Hundley Jnr: Right.

Moore To Consider: Interesting guy. Died in Rome, Papal States, resting place. Rome. Yeah. That's that's pretty amazing. He wrote a lot about legal plunder and the parable of the broken window. Yeah. So God bless him. I mean, really, God bless him. ⁓ but you know, one of the things that I found quite fascinating as a college professor, when I would bring this up, the students were like, I'm really interested in that. A guy said that or

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yep.

Moore To Consider: It it it sort of rings universal to people they've just never heard of. They think of politics and government as a struggle for resources. You know, get your group against that group to try to get more of this from that. They don't think in terms of government strictly just representing the interest of individual rights. They don't see it that way because they haven't been taught that. All right, we're up on we're up on 20 minutes again. I've thrown a lot out there, read the declaration, read a good portion of the law, the opening of the law, to kind of discuss.

Charles Hundley Jnr: All right. No. They don't kill.

Moore To Consider: And we've gone ahead and thrown the thing out. Maybe it's July second. Maybe I feel better about July second. Do you like the number

Charles Hundley Jnr: How about celebrate it from the second through the fourth?

Moore To Consider: How you like it's a good that's a long weekend kind of thing. Yeah, possibly if it falls correctly. So but let me ask you that. Of the two numbers, which number do you like better? Two or four?

Charles Hundley Jnr: ⁓ Well, unfortunately, I'm going to have to go with the four because it's familiar, especially in this context.

Moore To Consider: I'm f I'm a fan I mean just between the two numbers, I'm a fan of four. Four I like. Two's okay. It's Jeter's number. Derek Jeter worth number two. But yeah, but four was Yeah. Yeah, but I mean it's just between the two numbers. I'm a big fan of the number four. Four I like. Two's okay. Okay.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yeah, it's fine. We're just so used to four when it comes to this. Right.

Moore To Consider: What else do you want to say about Jefferson Bastiat? Give me the answer, Brother Charles. Where are we missing? How are the kids missing out on all this great information about the founding documents? And some French guy that's writing against tyranny.

Charles Hundley Jnr: ⁓ read Bastiat, read Locke. But really in of sort of entertaining way read the Federalist papers.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah.

Charles Hundley Jnr: then you can understand from literally the horse's mouth with different names as to what a lot of the founders thought what should happen and how. Yeah.

Moore To Consider: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, closing on that, Madison was a Jefferson guy. Hamilton clearly was not, but it's Jay and Madison and Hamilton that are writing the Federalist Papers. So they're in defense of the Constitution. And I think Hamilton's an interesting cat. I think he's a man of a great deal of physical courage. He was big dude in the war. Jefferson wasn't. Jefferson

Charles Hundley Jnr: Mm-hmm. Alright.

Moore To Consider: kinda tended to not really go near battles. I mean, he didn't have a history of that. Washington was clearly a man of physical courage, and so was Hamilton. ⁓ I think Madison was five feet four inches tall, little guy, but Monroe had Monroe had some history in the military.

Charles Hundley Jnr: No. Yes. Hey. Yeah, he went across to Delaware with Washington.

Moore To Consider: Yeah, so so when we're looking at all the dynamics of these men, Jefferson's a great writer for sure. Hamilton might have been the more practic Let me coin flip you on that, not coin flip. I mean I don't think it's a coin flip for you. Who do you side with more, Hamilton or Jefferson?

Charles Hundley Jnr: Jefferson is not even a question about that. Yeah. Yes. hmm. Yeah, he was a balance. It's somewhat of a balance.

Moore To Consider: I think I do too, but I'm glad there was a Hamilton. Fair? Yeah. Yeah. Well, he definitely tugged on the sleeve of Washington and got, but I really do think, and I'm no, I get degrees in history, but it doesn't mean I know shit. But I do always get the the view that Washington was a good administrator, probably a good reader of other men. And and and for the folks listening, I was in Richmond just a couple of years ago with a friend from another state, and we went to the rotunda in in the Capitol. The Capitol was a design of Jefferson. He came back with a big box with what was ⁓ a design for the state capitol, the Commonwealth Virginia. It opened in 1788. It's an interesting building. And that model is in there. But when you go into the ground floor with the rotunda above, it's beautiful. And all of the eight presidents from the Commonwealth Virginia have a bust. And there's a big statue of Washington, George Washington. And it's life size. It was made of it was a cast mole made of his body. Let's see, he dies at the age of 67, I think. So he's in his mid-50s. Folks, the father of our country was a dude. You see this thing, he's six feet two inches tall in a time when everybody's five five and he weighed 210, 215 pounds. And an athlete of the day was like, Could you ride a horse? He was a horseman. And you can tell from this cast, big hands, big body.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yes.

Moore To Consider: Big strong guy. That's a guy you kind of want to be the father of your country. Talk to me. Yeah.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Last thing, man. Last thing about this. I just learned this a few days ago. That is the original statue. There are, I want to say, 16 others around the world. And one of them is in Trafalgar Square in England. And this is really interesting. So it stands outside. I can't remember which government building stands outside, but it's on a pedestal.

Moore To Consider: Really? Okay.

Charles Hundley Jnr: And Washington said he never ever wanted to step on British soil ever again. So for that statue, they brought Virginia soil to England and they put the statue on top of this Virginia soil. Yeah. Yeah, I just learned that a couple of days ago.

Moore To Consider: Mm. ⁓ no way. Really? ⁓ wow. Well, I will throw this I will throw this out too. When I was at Monticello, like I said a few years ago, when you go and get tickets, you can walk it, you can get on these trolleys or whatever kind of like transportation thing they have. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna walk it with this friend of mine. We're gonna walk it. And there's a statue right as you leave this area, a life size statue of Jefferson. Do you know how tall Jefferson was? Six two.

Charles Hundley Jnr: He was six feet, wasn't he? Yeah, I kinda figured was tall.

Moore To Consider: Yeah. So when you see him, he's tall, but very frail. Like he looked like he might have been 160 pounds. But there's a life size statue of him there as well. And I'm standing right beside. I'm not tall, five nine if I'm lucky, but I'm looking at him like, whoa, he was kind of a tall, thin guy. But Washington, big dude. And it kind of, you know, again, for your father of your country, that's what you want. All right, Charles, anything else you want to throw in at the end here?

Charles Hundley Jnr: Nah, that's good. I'm alright,

Moore To Consider: So I'm gonna talk to Laura, my producer. Maybe we can get ⁓ I have several pictures from the Capitol. Maybe I'll try to pull one of those pictures out so everybody can see exactly what the Washington statue. You can look it up online for sure. You can find it. Capitol, Rotunda, Richmond, Virginia, 1788 Capitol. This has been Moore to consider. Please like and subscribe. Comment. Charles will read the comments. I won't. Everyone take care. Thanks, Charles.

Charles Hundley Jnr: Yes. Thank you.