Inside America's Hidden Sex Trafficking Networks — Cynthia Clack on 'Discovering the Club

Cynthia L. Clack: I learned a lot about this satanic cult and ritualistic stuff that was going on. But what I learned from the consultant that I brought in was that the satanic cult it's not just this kind of religious belief and and operation, but it's also into organized crime in the in the sense of child prostitution and child pornography as well as adult.

Jack Moore: Jack Moore, Moore to consider here. today I've got a great young lady on here, Cynthia Clack. She's an attorney in the great state of Texas. And we're gonna be talking about something very disturbing. she's gonna be telling you some some background on some things she knows. So please like and subscribe. The more you subscribe, the more we can get these stories out. I'm an attorney, so I'm always interested in the legal aspects of things, but law runs within the culture and the things that are happening. And we have a power structure that we once sometimes wonder, is it really working in our best interest? Is it sometimes protecting things that aren't in our best interest? Miss Clack, how are you today?

Cynthia L. Clack: I'm doing great, Jack. Thanks for having me.

Jack Moore: Okay, so you've written a book recently. Tell us about that book.

Cynthia L. Clack: okay. I've written a book called Discovering the Club. It came out five weeks ago. And

Jack Moore: Okay.

Cynthia L. Clack: and it the subtitle of the book, piecing together the puzzling network of parental pimping, ritualistic abuse, and sex trafficking. So reading the subtitle, you understand

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: we're not talking about the country club or the the golf club or the chess club. I mean Discovering the Club is the club that's surrounding Parental pimping, ritualistic abuse and sex traff

Jack Moore: All right, so what goes through my mind? I was born in nineteen sixty two, so I was born in a what I think is a different America. You know, I don't know. I I kinda wonder like Was there things going on was lurking in the background? Like more and more when I see things that happened in the twenties and thirties, I'm talking the twentieth century, twenties and thirties and forties, yeah, I kinda think like maybe it wasn't the way when you think about movies and and and how they came out, you know, really starting in the l you know, late nineteen teens and then from from from the silence into the talkies and all the rest and then radio nineteen twenty-ish and television later. We have been pr there's something that's been projected about an America that we once lived in. I know church attendance down, faith is down, there's a lot of things down, but I've always wondered how much evil stuff really lurked in the background. And I think what you're gonna say from your study that led to the book, there's a lot of evil stuff going on that probably John Q Citizen, Susie Q Citizen doesn't really know about. Fair?

Cynthia L. Clack: Fair. I I'd say that, or at least we don't want to believe it's happening in our own area, our own hometowns. Yeah.

Jack Moore: Right. Sure. Yeah. Well, and that's something that you when I was practicing law in a particular larger city in in the Commonwealth of Virginia a few years ago, a friend of mine, there was one of the secretaries I was very close to, she goes, Hey, check this out. I go, What? She pulls up the map surrounding where she lived in this particular town. There's like somebody on the sexual register for like every other house. And I think it's another thing a lot of people don't know, but you know, now sometimes people question like I've I've heard of like public urination. You know, you could get you could get charged with that and then he puts you on the sex registry because they say, quote, you exposed yourself, but you were trying to get a whiz in after, you know, you got drunk at some bar and all the bars were shut down, you didn't have a bathroom to go to I've I've actually heard of cases like that. But it's probably a low percentage, but still When people find out just how much of these type people that have been convicted of particular crimes are living in their na neighborhoods, I think they find that shocking. And it is it is out there today. So you're in a part of Texas where well t kind of tell that story. how did you discover what you discovered? Like what what is your law of practice? Like what do you what is has been generally your practice as far as the the type of law you do?

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay, well I've I've been a lawyer for 48 years. So early in my career when I started, I was a general practitioner. I did just about everything that walked in the door. So I was doing criminal work, car wrecks, oil field accidents, a workers' comp, setting up corporations, you know, doing people's traffic tickets, and divorce and custody work and so forth. So over the years, I about s nine years into my law practice, I became board certified in Texas in the field of family law with the kind of a niche of divorce and custody work. In other words, not adoptions and that kind of thing, but but

Jack Moore: Right. Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: divorce and custody. So these days pretty much all I do is divorce and custody work. So I wasn't setting out to discover these evil types of things that people are doing to to children. I mean, I was trying to get people's property divided, you know, who's gonna get

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia L. Clack: the couch, who's gonna get the the love seat, you know, who's gonna get this painting. And then, you know, as as I got a greater reputation, then we were dividing up the corporations and who was gonna get which corporation and you know, bigger numbers, but still divorces, dividing up property and and if it was a custody battle sometimes with minor children, it was differences in in parental how to raise the kids, discipline or what school the kids, you know, things like that. So so I wasn't seeking out parents doing evil things to their children. But what happened starting about thirty years ago, thirty one years ago, is I ran across this very unusual case People were already divorced, so what was really getting hired on was a a custody battle after the people were divorced. And dad was French kissing the little two and a half year old girl goodbye at daycare. Well that was weird and creepy. But then then the more the investigation turned out, he had satanic books in his bookshelf when the CPS worker got there and he was doing these ritualistic things to the daughter and and tying her up naked and licking her all over and there were all these weird things going on. And so I had to bring in a consultant going like are we dealing with satanic cults on this because I had never had a case that involved that kind of thing and yet because of the books in the bookshelves and some of the references that were going on and these were highly educated, highly intelligent people that not only the two parents but the whole circle of friends. These people were geologists, psychologists.

Jack Moore: Let me make let me let me let me ask let me ask something real quick so I make it clear. Were you representing one of the two parties or were you working like is and we call it Virginia Guardian ad litem and you're like working for the interest of the kids? What was your role in this? Okay.

Cynthia L. Clack: I was representing mom. I got hired by mom. And and dad was the one that had you know,

Jack Moore: Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: had actually filed it first. So when the C P S started moving in and checking him out, he filed for custody first. And then I got hired by mom and so we were in a custody battle over the

Jack Moore: Alright, now did mom did mom play any part in this? Was she complicit or?

Cynthia L. Clack: Well, she was she was also a member of Mensa, so this was her circle of friends too. Now she she was from everything that I ever observed about her from way back then up till now, she was the protective parent. She was not into any aspect of the satanic cult, she wasn't into any aspect of abusing the child. She was in the role of trying to protect her daughter and as that was

Jack Moore: Right. But was she aware of what but was she aware of what was going on?

Cynthia L. Clack: not until right probably right before the whole case broke open into litigation. what what kind of broke it open was dad had made a video tape of the little girl with a whole lot of nudity. the like I say, the little girl was lots of she was in the bathtub, in the kitchen sink naked, vacuuming, doing doing her little play vac you know, for a little two and a half year old girl, vacuuming in the nude and so all of these this video with nudity for the child and it it just seemed odd. There were just kind of weird things about the video. And and later when we brought a consultant in, the consultant who knew a lot about the satanic cult said, yes, this is a in her opinion, it was an interview, a promotional video to pitch this little girl for child prostitution and child pornography. So

Jack Moore: So

Cynthia L. Clack: that's

Jack Moore: now did so from what you're telling me, there is a divorce. When he comes back and becomes a moving party on the custody issue, now she retains you for counsel. Is she leading with this? Like, by the way, Miss Clack, I gotta tell you what this guy's about, or are you guys kinda discovering it once you start to get into this? Or do you think she knew all along? Do you think she kinda knew all along and this was her way of of saying this is what we need to go after?

Cynthia L. Clack: No, I don't think she knew because when they divorced, I mean it was a different set of lawyers. I mean, I I wasn't involved in the divorce

Jack Moore: Right, right.

Cynthia L. Clack: and I don't recall how long they've been divorced, but but I think they had split custody like kinda he had a week and she had a week. So I don't

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: she I don't think she had had that information back then. And and so when C P S became involved, I think I think it was I don't know who turned them in, but I think it was somebody from the from the child care had turned dad in for French kissing the little girl goodbye. But anyway, CPS became involved. They were taking action. That's when dad filed for custody. And so then the mom comes and hires me and she lays out what she had learned say in the last few days about the videotape and these various things. And so then we were heading into a temporary order hearing within days. So it was just everything happened so fast sometimes in the custody cases.

Jack Moore: Right. Well, and I guess something that would probably make None of it makes sense, but something that might seem plausible is maybe c again, the child's only two and a half years of age, so there's only a small window of time that he could have been doing this, so maybe he doesn't ramp this up or begin to really get into this activity until there is a split and when he's sharing custody and time he has her, he starts to do this. That might be why the wife didn't really, ever really know that he had some kind of proclivity towards this or he was gonna go that right. Now, is that their only child?

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes, their only child.

Jack Moore: Okay.

Cynthia L. Clack: Here's another factor because both parents were in Mensah, they had genius IQs. This child also had a genius IQ. I don't know at what age you start giving a two and a half year old a a an IQ test. But the child could use words like serendipitous and copacetic in a sentence and you know quite

Jack Moore: At two and a half.

Cynthia L. Clack: at two and at age two and a half, she knew all of her body parts.

Jack Moore: Wow.

Cynthia L. Clack: So when she was describing things like at one point during that case, she described daddy loading a revolver and inserting the loaded revolver in her vagina. And she would use the word vagina. So so this child was, very exceptional in terms of her vocabulary and her be ability to describe

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: what daddy's doing. So that was an additional thing. We weren't so much dealing with guesswork. Because this child was so able to communicate what was going on. Yes.

Jack Moore: At two and a half she w yeah. And of course she has nothing to I mean, God, it's so sick, it's so sad, but that's the only two and a half years of life she's had, not like any of the neighbors. She doesn't know sh I mean, maybe you know, in her little world it's like this is what daddies do. I I mean, how would you know anything else? I mean it's

Cynthia L. Clack: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. She would she would be in front of, you know, as the case was evolving, she would be in front of the CPS workers with dad there and she would ask her, Daddy, Are you gonna show Miss So and so your gun, Daddy? I mean, she was talking about the gun and she you know, that's what she you know was things she was saying. Yeah.

Jack Moore: That's the only world she'd known. Yeah, but the amount of okay, so you have this case. What else does that

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay.

Jack Moore: lead to?

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay, well well what was I mean many things about the case were weird, but I I mean I learned a lot about about this satanic cult and ritualistic stuff that was going on. But what I learned from the consultant that I brought in was that the satanic cult it's not just this kind of religious belief and and operation, but it's also into organized crime in the in the sense of child prostitution and child pornography as well as adult. So we were in that case we were seeking to terminate the dad's rights and we had like nine out of thirteen experts said this dad's rights need to be terminated. He does not need to go to school.

Jack Moore: I'm sorry, did you say nine out of thirteen?

Cynthia L. Clack: 13 experts testified in the jury trial. And Texas still has jury trials for custody cases. But yes, nine of them said

Jack Moore: So there were four, there were four that were like, I'm okay with this. Wow. Okay. I just.

Cynthia L. Clack: They just weren't recommending termination. And but but the at ad litem who had been appointed by the judge, said, no, daddy loves the child, the child loves daddy, don't terminate. The judge will protect the child. You know, we'd gone into that jury trial with dad being under supervised visitation. And so with the adlidum for the child recommending no termination, the jury went with that, but they gave mom custody, but but they said the judge will take care. Now here's the kicker of of the book. the judge gave dad unsupervised visitation. He gave dad standard possession order. just like any good dad in the state of Texas. I'm serious.

Jack Moore: Are you serious?

Cynthia L. Clack: So that was that's the reason that case made it in as the first case I talk about in my book is because that judge which had been re represented by the child's attorney would take care of the child and protect the child and would enter orders that would protect the child, that's what he did. So you know the jury leaves trusting the judge is going to take care of the child and the judge gave unsupervised visitation to dad, which in Texas is you know, 30 days during the summer, you know, every other holiday. Every first, third, and fifth weekend. So dad had all of this time, you know, dad who had been conducting himself the way he had had all of this unsupervised time with this child. What that amounts to today, a a dad having standard positional role, is about forty-four percent of the time. So it's not quite fifty percent, but but parents who have the the not who are the non custodial parents still have a whole lot of time with their with their children.

Jack Moore: Here's what's here's what's flooring me, okay. You're saying the things that this this poor two and a half year old child is saying. In the Commonwealth of Virginia, I mean, we have a charge for inanimate sexual penetration that is a felony. I mean, it's a felony. And if you're talking not only a minor but a two and a half year old, if this information's known. I don't know why he's not facing 15 years, much less sharing custody with the child. I don't know how any court system I'm not coming down. I'm just I can't understand if if they have knowledge of this, how are

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah.

Jack Moore: they looking at this that he doesn't present an incredible physical, emotional, and otherwise danger to her?

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes. Okay, so just put a pin on that statement for a moment and I'll explain to you kind of why

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: that disturbs me equally. Is like,

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: you know, you know, I could take this one case from thirty one years ago and say, Well, judge didn't get it or he wasn't listening or or we don't agree on on this kind of stuff. But number one, things were taken to the DA's office, they didn't do anything. The DA's office didn't do anything. Yes.

Jack Moore: Really? I was gonna say what happened to the prosecutor's office? Okay, there's your answer. Wow.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But what I'm describing in this book in and this is Midland County, Texas, the highest per capita income county in the state of Texas. So you you've got wealthy people, you know, widespread wealth in that county. And it's the second highest in the nation in the country. So it's it's a very wealthy county with lots of money. but what I'm describing in my book is case after case, not those identical facts obviously, but where children are at risk, need protection, there's legitimate compliance where where the The judges do not protect the children. The DA's office doesn't prosecute the predators. The CPS writes it off and calls it, you know, calls it ruled out and cleared over and over again. So I'm giving example after example, particularly in that county. And I'm not saying this stuff doesn't go on throughout the nation. But what I'm describing is a particular county where there is such a locked in pattern of protection for decades. Because like I say, I'm one of the older lawyers in this part of the country who practices in this field. So I've got every single file. I've not destroyed my files. I've not, you know, so I've had I was pulling the actual files as I was writing this book. So what were the disturbing cases that that demonstrated this pattern of not just abuse but protection of the abusers? And so that's that's what I was doing. with this book. So it took me two years to write it, another year working with the publishing company through the editing process. So like I say it just came out five weeks ago. But but that's what I was talking about is that pattern of protection as well as just the abuse itself.

Jack Moore: Yeah, I can't even fathom that. Now again, I might have been the dark in the dark in the areas that I practice law in the Commonwealth of Virginia, but I I know some jurisdictions I worked as a prosecutor, I did defense work, but I worked as a prosecutor. And I know some cities I was in, man, if it was anything found like that where a child had been touched or penetrated or whatever and that guy there's charges and they're and they're gonna go max. They're gonna you know so I just can't believe a DA's office hears I'm like, well, okay, let's just let that go and then You know, a jury has this presented and it's like, We got a custody issue. I just can't imagine a person

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay.

Jack Moore: operating in acts of that nature and ever seeing the child again. Much less getting custody. So so yeah, there's something going on. Something doesn't yeah, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Well okay. And so yeah. And so those those are the like the first three chapters in my book. But jump over to chapter nine, in my book and it's called On the Payroll. So in that chapter I'm describ describing where for a twenty year period there was an assistant DA in the district attorney in the DA's office there in Midland County, who was on the payroll of the district judges. They had this little slush fund, this little secret slush fund where they had him as their briefing clerk. So by day he was sitting at the prosecutor's table prosecuting capital murder cases and all these felony cases but he was on the payroll with the judges as their briefing clerk. Now My experience w back when I was doing criminal work and as a defense attorney, I've been special prosecutor a couple of times, but If if a judge wants a law wants a brief on something, you know, here in Texas, the judge can call both sides in and say, I want prosecutor and defense attorney to brief this out and get me a brief by tomorrow morning or next week. And everything's like, Yes, ma'am, yes, sir, we'll we'll get it done. But so to me it made no sense for these district judges to have a briefing clerk who is also prosecuting the same cases. So when that news broke it hit national attention. It didn't get a whole lot of publicity locally, but it was hitting USA Today and Wall Street Journal and all kinds of national publications. And and the prosecutor who was on the payroll he had to turn in his law license in lieu of disparment with the state of Texas. So he was out you know gave up the law license but none of the judges did. And so the reason

Jack Moore: No, the judges suffered, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah, the reason I point that out is the question you're posing early on is that that what's going on in that county as to why Why are people not being prosecuted? I mean, why would they even do that? Well, you all know that's very unethical. They knew it. Once they got busted in the national news hit, you know, the lawyer was turning in his law license. The judges weren't turning in their law licenses though. But but it's just like why? Why were they doing it? It's probably not just who was being prosecuted, but it was also like who wasn't being prosecuted. What was the dialogue back in the back chambers of like who had the protection? Who was not being prosecuted? So those are a lot of questions at least for me.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and you know as as we were talking when we first met, you know, I just recently saw a replay of like twenty five years ago as I was telling you of of George Carlin I guess it was twenty, twenty five years ago, on politically incorrect with Bill Maher and he gets into it this guy and he goes, I keep saying there's a club and you're not in it And the guy goes, come on, you got these crazy conspiracies. He goes, No, you have to understand if everybody went to, and as I mentioned, you know, you always look at the United States Supreme Court, it's Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. They all went to school the same three law schools. Or you look, you know, kind of across the board at members of the House and Senate, they tend to be lawyers and they tend to go to the same law schools. And my point is what Carlin was saying is it's age really well in kind of applying it to what's going on here, he goes, they don't have to have a smoke-filled room, five guys with cigars. Having a talk, they all have the same interest. They have been running in the same circles. So that was one of the things that was always shocking to me. And I know you don't want to go too too much down the road of political, but I always kind of thought of the prosecutor as leaning more towards being more conservative or being more on the side of law and order. And when I see prosecutors talking about, I don't care about this or I don't care about that or They kind of want to restructure the system. You kinda wonder, but it could be a political view. It could actually be a political view. But there is also that thing about I saw it at practicing attorney, you know, I'm not Clarence Darrell. I was no big deal, but there were times I'd run into something. I'm like, kinda, what's going on with that? you didn't know that? That that judge went to law school with you the guy that you were that that you were in a case against there the there was a wink and a nod and there seemed to be some kind of friendship or something going on and that's just how things were done. That's anywhere. That's smallest town to largest city. But when

Cynthia L. Clack: Sure, that's everything.

Jack Moore: it when it goes to a next level though, when it goes to a next level of you're turning your back on clearly criminal activity. Sick, really, you know. twisted

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah.

Jack Moore: type of behavior and you're like, it's fine because it's Jimmy, I went to law school with him. Or you're protecting a class of people. So you're talking about very affluent people, probably working in the same lines of work, or, you know, very lucrative types of work. And then it seems funny that this kind of thing is being swept not only swept under the rug, it becomes institutional. It it becomes part of the landscape. And that's that's scary.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah. And so

Jack Moore: Do you let me ask you this though. Do you see a correlation though? You talk about Mensa in in in that one particular case. You're seeing a correlation, it sounds like, between high intelligence, high achievers, high income earners, that type of thing. You're you're seeing some connection to that?

Cynthia L. Clack: well, in that particular case, certainly. I mean, you know, I'm just describing the profile of the parents and the profile of their friends. And so that was their circle of friends. I'm not saying that I that is the club. I'm just saying that that in that case that those were the demographics of what we were dealing with. And and and I say that kind of part part of the story is that sometimes when depending on what news feed we're watching, where where we're getting our news, sometimes we think that it's the poorer people or the

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: people of certain skin color or certain national origin and things or certain accents, you know, those are the people who are less educated. They do they do creepy things to their children, but we we are higher more highly educated, so we don't do creepy things to our children. I mean, sometimes people get to their thoughts Processes that way because of race or national origin or something like that. So I am I am telling because of my law practice in the cases that I've worked on, these are highly educated,

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia L. Clack: highly intelligent, high wage earner people. And we would think that I mean they're certainly not doing what they're doing out of ignorance. they could know better, they should know better. We all think that they should know better than to be inserting a loaded gun in the vagina of a two and a half year old. I mean, how insane is that? And yet that kind of thing's going on. So what is that about? I mean, why? Is that ritualistic? Is that control? Is that fear? Is that is that a part of your sick thinking your pleasure? Is that what gives you your I mean, you know, I don't know. I don't I don't understand.

Jack Moore: No, but okay, but I guess my question was, and I think this is what you're sort of saying, that one may have or or believe growing up in this country, this kind of a stereotypical view that, like, yeah, the people with lesser intelligence or education, they might skew into these bad things there. No, it's actually the people, you know, making seven figures a year that the they're the ones living in the seventeen bedroom house. They're the ones doing it, which would suggest that There's kind of an underground cult of of some type of y you're saying satanic worship, there there must be something in the water with the way these people see the world that they think this is not ex not only acceptable, but kind of routine. But I would say, and I'm sure you've seen this in your study of all of this. those that abuse tend to have been abused. It seems to be a cycle of of of the nature of the very and whatever happened with this father that's doing that type of act to his two year old child, I

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: guarantee you somewhere it's not a justification at all. I'm not saying it's justifiable. But he could not have had the best upbringing. I wouldn't imagine. Although who the hell knows, but you know, if

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah. But I do wanna say say one thing in in what you just said. It's like they know it's not acceptable. So it is secret. You know, I mean it

Jack Moore: sure. Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: it's not like they're openly now he may have openly

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: been frish French kissing his daughter, but he's not openly admitting to these other things. These were things that were being covered But among their group they knew their conduct was not acceptable and and I'll even say they knew it wasn't legal. You know,

Jack Moore: Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: they know it's not legal. But they're they're you know, there's a level

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: of protection there wherever it's coming from.

Jack Moore: So you brought up organized crime, and my mind went to maybe organized crime plays more of a role in, okay, there's some sick people out there with an appetite for X. We'll get in the middle of the money stream. Not so much that they and I'm not trying to talk about the great virtues of the mob as we think about it, or you know, organized crime. But it would be more of okay, if these people want to peddle in this, or this is what they want to do, we'll get in the stream and we're gonna be involved in it. So I'm sure it has aspects of basically sex work or exploitation of children for for sexual acts and pornography and the rest. So this father, just using that example, you're saying like 1995-ish. in that environment, do you think he was grooming her to then pass on to is is there some kind of a it's it's almost like a pass on your kids to others type of thing that he might have been grooming her for? Do you think that's the expectation?

Cynthia L. Clack: Certainly. Certainly. that's what the consultant was telling me. And the consultant was someone who had grown up in the satanic cult with all of her relatives being involved in the s satanic cult. And so yes, I mean, it wasn't she was grooming them to turn them over to the Italian mafia. She they were in and of themselves the organized crime group, you know. They

Jack Moore: Okay, got okay, so it's it it's not our standard issue view of what we'd kinda think of as the five families type of thing. It it's they have created their own organization of organized crime.

Cynthia L. Clack: I mean that that was my perception. I am not an expert on that, but that was my

Jack Moore: Right. No, I understand. I understand.

Cynthia L. Clack: perception. No, they're I don't think they're turning it over to the Mexican mafia or the Texas mafia or the whatever.

Jack Moore: Right, right.

Cynthia L. Clack: I think that in and of themselves they are doing these rituals that are, you know, doing their raping of children and and raping of teenagers and and killing people. I mean there's you know describing murders and cannibalism. I mean there is all kinds of stuff going on within the context of this abuse. And and it's whatever this club is, I mean I'm not a I'm not a undercover cop, I'm just a divorce lawyer, but I mean seeing and reading the reports from counseling records and the outcries these children are making and describing, this stuff is going on. with like I say this group of people that that we perceive to be good people that you know high social standing and and you know the the fancy clubs private clubs you know the the country clubs the private clubs the things like that that people want to associate with that they think are very upstanding and you know and also there out been outcries about this things happening in churches. Like in church basements

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia L. Clack: where the ritualistic stuff is going on in the churches. So, I mean, there's a lot of stuff packed into this book. And and so, in a way, this was my educational learning curve. And I'm passing along my educational learning curve to the reader to go like, hey folks, this This is going on in this part of Texas that has all of these churches. They're so pretty and so good. And we're we've got all these awards going on, and yet this is how the children are being treated.

Jack Moore: Are you getting much blowback? I mean, you are you are you getting any people to come out and say, Hey l hey lady, you need you need to calm this down a little bit, you need to back off, or are you getting some people like, Man, now my eyes have been opened, we need to like pool our resources to work against this, or what do you what do you kind reaction are you getting?

Cynthia L. Clack: Well, in one way I'm getting a lot of silence. I mean, I'm not getting a lot of people call me up. I have people who have reached out to me going, like, these kinds of things were happening to me. So, you know, things that they're reading in the book also happened in their lives, but they feel so hopeless that nobody's listening to them. So I I have some of that type of feedback. But but the other thing is You know, I mean life goes on. I'm still practicing law. I'm I'm still doing my work. So so it's just It it's I think people don't know what to do. I think they're shocked because because I do name names in here. I changed the names of the clients and the children to

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: protect them, but I'm naming the judges and the CPS workers and the people who were impacting these people's lives. If they think they can just do these things and putting these children into danger, I think perhaps they're not real thrilled with their names being attached, but I'm not putting a conclusion. On it. I'm just saying, Judge so and so ruled this way. These this is what the judge said, this is what the judge ruled. This I mean, and I'm quoting the documents, and so if they're unhappy about their name appearing in this book, it's their own words where they were impacting a child's life. thirty years ago and that child had to live with that abuse abuse and that abusive parents for all those years of growing up thanks to that judge. And that's they have to own it.

Jack Moore: Well, that that's something that certainly crossed my mind too, and I don't know that you know, I don't know that you want to even say if you're talking about this event occurring between the father and his daughter, she's thirty plus years old now. Do you have any idea how sh how her life turned out?

Cynthia L. Clack: I do. I've visited with her mother recently and you know, I've kinda got some updates but I'm gonna keep that more, you know, turning plant. But but

Jack Moore: Yeah, I understand. I understand.

Cynthia L. Clack: yeah, these things I will I'll say this on a global aspect. These things impact children for a lifetime. And we may think that

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: a two and a half year old doesn't understand stuff and is not impacted and won't remember it. I do not believe that true to be true. Th these children, you know, remember being abused. They remember or sometimes they stuff it so deep. They they have a lot of problems and they don't know why. Because if they haven't

Jack Moore: Right. Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: gone through the the counseling therapeutic process, they don't know why they're so anxious and things like that. So there's there's a lot of different aspects to this abuse. But I think that we as society, you know, kind of give the abuser a break going like kid's not going to remember being and having a gun inserted in the vagina at age two and a half, you know, they just don't kids don't remember that kind of thing. And you know, I mean, it is devastating and it is impactful. And and we need to, as a society, to start demanding that we listen to these children and we need justice for these children.

Jack Moore: Well, we have an issue too. And you know, when we first met I said and I'm sure the listeners like, Hey, you get a you get a way to pull that into everything, but I wrote my master's thesis on the Kennedy assassination. And following that, they coined the term conspiracy theorist. And it was to be the pejorative. It's or you it's it's it's like dismissing you got a crazy theory here. Well, I'm one of those that think Oswald did it, but I'm not quite sure why. So I mean you can go down that different road. But I was just looking at all all of our discussion kinda got me thinking about the motion picture that came out, sound of freedom, and A particular, I'll just say it, a particular thing on the internet says this about that film. The film attracted considerable attention for its connections to QAnon conspiracy theory. A conspiracy theory that states a worldwide satanic cannibal cabal is running a mass human trafficking operation. So I just bring that point up to say that. Something that people can read every day is kind of pushing

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah.

Jack Moore: off that even this motion picture, which talked about I think children coming from Colombia. They want to dismiss well, that's some of those crazy conspiracy type of people. So who would want to really push that worldview? The same people that are allowing this to happen in the courts and the communities, the high end. I and I'm saying you basically have said, you've lived it. Whatever degree this this is across the divorce cases across the board, but what you found to be it's pretty solid evidence. This this was satanic worship type of activity in a family home, leading to and including someone taking a firearm and doing the horrible deed that you've described. I mean, hell, when you're at that point and there is any type of evidence to show This has legs, it's it's going in different directions, maybe even worldwide. That's something to look into. But if you can write a dismissive like, yeah, well that's that's the crazy conspiracy type people that believe this, that's how it basically is able to allow to just continue to fester without it much repercussion.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. let me say a couple of things about this. I was aware of the sound of freedom when it came out, but I did not watch it then and I have now to this day not watched it. And I was aware of the subject matter

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia L. Clack: of it, but I intentionally didn't watch it because I was in the course of writing this book and I didn't in any way want to be influenced one way or the other by

Jack Moore: Sure. Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: that film to say like, Cynthia latched on to this movie that was getting all this.

Jack Moore: No understood.

Cynthia L. Clack: So I I Really wanted to stick to the facts of the cases that I had personally worked on. And so all I'm doing is reporting from therapeutic notes and CPS notes of what this child said. Now the same adlitum who was appointed to represent that child who said, don't terminate the rights, the judge will will take care of the child, that same ad. litem attorney stood up in front of the jury and said to the jury, this child has recanted her statement about the the pistol being sort of inserted in her vagina. Now, to me, that was pretty wild because how would the child have even come up with such a a description? I mean, there that it's just like that's inconceivable that I mean, who would even think of something like that? And so so the thing is that whole aspect of the case was kind of weird and and skewed in my opinion. But nevertheless, that was a piece of the evidence that was told to the jury, like, that child recanted that statement about daddy inserting the gun in her vagina. But but what I'm saying is, I had grown up I'd been practicing law for seventeen years at the time that I started going through the facts of this particular case that I'm describing from nineteen ninety five. So I was a pretty experienced lawyer. I had you know, I'd tried I had tried cases where a daddy had abused all four of his daughters. I had tried murder cases. I had tried drug cases. I mean I I had a pretty widespread repertoire of of cases I'd worked on. But I had never seen anything quite like this one that I describe in the book. And so I needed help because I thought, you know, I my idea of the satanic cult up till that point was just, you know, it was just a bunch of kids listening to an Ozzy Osborne record and go, go kill a cow, burn a black candle, play an Ozzy Osborne record backwards and you know, we're really bad. And I'd watch the Exorcist. So that was my sum total of my understanding. Of anything about the satanic cult. But when this woman came in and she said, No, it is absolutely organized crime. And it is they are operating to make money. I'm not calling it a cabal. I'm not calling anything. I'm just saying. This exists. And she also said they have their well-placed people in every aspect of society, from the highest to the lowest. And as I write the book, I can't say that all these people are into involved in the satanic cult. I don't know. I don't know. But I I know what I've experienced. I know what these children have reported. I know in various cases. I know what the judges have ruled in the various cases. Cases. And so after reading the book, the reader will have to come to their own conclusions. And there are many people who have a lot more knowledge about it than I do. But I'm not expressing a conspiracy theory. I am merely stating the facts of what I experienced over a 30-year period of my law career. And and it's Pretty shocking. I think it's informative. I think it's stuff that we need to be aware of that's around us.

Jack Moore: Well, that that brings up the yeah, I just looked up Cabal, just just look at her working definition. A group of people who are united in some close design, usually to promote their private views or interest in an ideology, a state, or another community, often by intrigue and usually without the knowledge of those who are outside their group. Kinda sounds like, right? So

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay.

Jack Moore: that's what I'm saying. It's kinda like I can't I do this all the time in shows too, but I kinda go to COVID. Like is COVID is happening. I'm like, this is Wizard of Oz stuff. I see the guy behind the curtain. I see it. I'm just like, this is bullshit. This is what's happening. But you know, to say it, like, what are you anti science? Are you crazy? So we saw the mind thing that went on there. There was a group of people in charge. They sold a certain narrative as to how this whole thing got started, how it got spread, and then what the response had to be at state and local government. and in in some level federal government. And the whole time I'm like, this doesn't look right, this doesn't look right. Something's not quite right here. But, you know, it it it age well to think that something wasn't quite right. But it's it's kind of same thing. You are by the nature of having a case I didn't say you stumbled into it, but you had something thrust upon you, like, holy cow, I didn't kinda know that was going on, especially among people that look like they're at this status of life. So now you kind have to say to yourself, I wonder how widespread this might be. And I wonder why every judge seems to be in the tank. And it's you know, it's kind of crazy that the guardian ad litem, or we call it guardian, the ad litem was like, you know, you're looking at it, you're like, that kind of looks like to me there's something else deeper going on here. And then to question, this is how society works. To question then becomes, you're one of those crazy people, huh? You're one those conspiracy theorists, right? You think you're just kinda like, hell, I see something and it doesn't like qu like quite look right. And then you have to wonder. Again, when you see what appears to be widespread corruption or or or or something's going. You know, and I thought another it's a different lane, but it's not the same. But you remember the guy that got taken down, the judge in Pennsylvania. I think he was like he w he got like two million dollars from they they built a series of juvenile detention centers. And Privately, privately. They build these private in Penns in the state of Pennsylvania, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And this guy eventually gets busted. And he's taken like two million dollars of payouts from the private organization that opened this detention center. And I watched this documentary

Cynthia L. Clack: Okay.

Jack Moore: on it, and this like one kid in an argument with his stepfather threw a piece of steak at him across the kitchen table. He gets like two years of detention. It you know, this is I'm I'm exaggerating, but it like crazy. And all these parents started coming up, like, why are my kids getting locked away, locked away? Well, they come to find out that with this private group, they're like, We're gonna put you on a payroll. You give kids max time, we're gonna pay you under the table. You know, and and I'm using the example, John Q suits like wait, wait, wait. No what no judge would risk his entire career and he got prison time overtaking a few extra bucks. Well, two million dollars later, he did. And we'd like to not think that any judge would do something like that in that position of authority. Now that was just greed. I mean, that was just like, hey, you know, I can make

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: a few extra bucks. And I'm gonna ruin the li and one kid committed suicide. He was a wrestler and he lost he thought he was losing his wrestling scholarship. And I remember at his sentencing, the mother came screaming at him, My son's dead. Was it worth the two million? You son of a bitch. You did this to my son. And I'm like, that's some righteous anger. You know, this kid got his life ruined. For some really minor thing, he ends up getting all of this time of detention, which really cost him his life. Well, it cost him his future. And then he commits suicide. So

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes.

Jack Moore: Now, you have to ask yourself in the situation you're talking about, the players involved, the attorneys, the judges, it doesn't mean that they're involved in this type of behavior, but it certainly would at least appear that they're running in circles where they're there to protect it.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I'm laying out the facts, the reader connects the dots, or they may say, you know, random stuff. You know, I mean, they may not connect the dots. I I mean I'm not telling people they have to view it the same way, but I think it was a compelling enough story in terms of telling my learning curve of seeing this. that and a and another thing I wanna say about my book is that what I told in the book is kind of the P G version. Now it's it's pretty horrific. The P G version is pretty horrific. But what I actually have experienced in these case files, the X rated version involving the murders that these children are describing, the cannibalism that they have observed and and been put through, those things to me are Yeah. really horrific and I don't go into the details in my book about some of those things that the children are describing. And again, how could children just fabricate this? I mean and it's

Jack Moore: Yeah, they yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: not just, you know, that they're reciting a script. It's like they are having this visceral reaction of of shutdown. They're triggered and and I mean, you know, this has been a huge learning curve for me. I I didn't come out of here with a psychology degree and an understanding of all these things. I mean, I've been learning case by case by case as I go along.

Jack Moore: you go right. Alright, so now let me get clear on that too. You have this case, roughly nineteen ninety-five-ish, I guess, with the two and a half year old, the father. then you got more cases or it led you to investigate cases. So you continue to get these type of cases.

Cynthia L. Clack: No. I just got hired. I mean I d I'm not seeking them out. In fact, you know, I I basically probably one of the few lawyers in the country that doesn't advertise and so all of my cases for all pretty much all these years has been word of mouth. so I don't have this Google presence and this, you know, paid advertising

Jack Moore: Right. Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: or billboards or anything like that. So so so what I'm saying is peop these cases are coming to me, people are hiring me, men and women. I'm I mean you know, are hiring me for their divorces and their custody cases. And for the most part, all of them are just kind of straightforward. I mean they may be nasty and they may involve a lot of money or something like that, but but they're not involving the kinds of things that we're discussing on this podcast today. But then then some similar fact situation will come up where daddy is sleeping naked with his naked daughter. I mean so daddy's naked year old Daughter's naked, and the daughter makes an outcry to a counselor that you know I get cold at night because daddy won't let me wear my pajamas. And so here we are in court trying to get that daddy put under supervised visitation. What does the judge do in the outcome? No, he doesn't issue a protective order for the child, he doesn't put dad under supervised visitation. The judge fires the counselor, tells the mom who hired. This counselor, you will never take that child back to that counselor again. And daddy, don't sleep naked with your daughter anymore. And the case was over. That was the same judge who who denied the I mean that gave the dad unsupervised visitation in that first case. So so what I'm saying is I'm giving other examples of other types of cases where the child is is in jeopardy, and and this is another example of a ruling where. Where the judge is not protecting the child. So

Jack Moore: Right. Okay, s so let me let me put it this way then. So you start in or again around nineteen ninety five with the the with the case, the premier case you brought out at the beginning. So as you go through your practice forward, how many of those do you get in a year where you're like seeing super inappropriate haver behavior swept under the rug? Two, three, five a year? Okay.

Cynthia L. Clack: Maybe not that many. I mean it it might go for two or three years without having anything, at all. Because I don't I don't take on massive numbers of cases. I

Jack Moore: Right. Right. But in the case that you No, I understand, I understand. I just wanted to know like the kind of the frequency you're seeing it. You're one attorney, you're not advertising, but some of this is coming in. So on dad with daughter sleeping nude together that you just mentioned, you don't see any sign of satanic rituals there. You just got an inappropriate dad. Not to discount that, but just say, yeah, it you

Cynthia L. Clack: I didn't have any other

Jack Moore: So have you s did you ever get any more cases where there's cer there clearly seem to be some link to satanic rituals of worship? Yeah, okay. How many of those would you

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes. Yes. Yeah, we're children. Okay. Well, not that many. I mean,

Jack Moore: Okay.

Cynthia L. Clack: you know, because you know, it's not that I'm not visiting with the children for one thing. They're they're You know, that's very f frowned upon in here in Texas. So I'm visiting with mom or dad, who whichever side I'm representing, but then I'm reading counseling and therap therapy notes. And the children are struggling and having problems and they're making outcries. But yeah, I've I've got a case where the children children have have described to their therapist, their counselor, that they were in a basement of a church where people were wearing hoods, robes and hoods. and cutting the children, killing a lamb, killing a goat, blood on the walls, this kind of thing. You know, so yeah, those kinds of descriptions in the therapy notes.

Jack Moore: Yeah, and I think a good part of it that probably covers for this kind of behavior and activity is it seems so outlandish. You know what I mean? It's kinda it's got the outlandish cover, like, you don't really believe in that, do you? You're like, yeah, like kids would actually have seen that. So you've seen it, or you you've been able to see these notes and it it kinda becomes a question of believing children. You know, and

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes. Yeah.

Jack Moore: I this is this is really I mean, you've opened my eyes a great deal, but you know, the Sound of Streetum, I know it was more about the trafficking aspect of it too, but I remember how it grossed some incredible amount of money based on a really low budget. So people were well, that's one of those things when I'm when I've mentioned before, we go from movies to radio and to television. We our media is clearly controlled and the messages that we get, and I think that The America that from like nineteen ninety five that I remember as a as early teenager, we were believing the country was one thing. And I don't I think always it was something a little bit different, probably darker. And now I think more and more we're finding that the people that ascend to power aren't necessarily doing it for they're and I don't want to get into the whole political they're not doing it for us, but they're the p the people that seek the power in the first place are the ones I'd most question because I've been around it. You're an attorney, I'm an attorney. You could just find people that seem to be hungry for recognition. They they had political aspirations. They didn't the person that's saying, Hey I'm going to Washington or I'm going to Austin to help you the No they're not. No they're not. They're they're going there because they seek power. And then in the power, maybe they kind in other words, I'll put it this way this is just me talking. I've been around politicians, a number of them. I've never been around any of them that I really felt that comfortable with, that they really had any other intention than what you gain from well, let's look at it this way. And you know this and I know this. People enter the House of Representatives worth forty three thousand dollars, and twelve years later, after six terms, they're worth you know thirteen million or something. How the hell has that happened? How are you going up there making $175,000

Cynthia L. Clack: Exactly.

Jack Moore: a year and you're leaving in 12 years worth multiple millions of dollars, if not tens of millions? There's something in the system that would tell you right there that that's a career choice. That's not a representation of the population. It's a career choice and there's it's lucrative. And and what we kind of talked about going into this, I don't know how far you want to go into it, in this particular famous case that we've had in the last decade or so, or maybe a little bit longer. It does bring up the idea what better way to rein in people in political power than to have the goods on them for some of the activities they may have partaken in with particular people, let's say.

Cynthia L. Clack: Course. I mean, yeah, and and I I'll say this about about politicians. I mean, I I do believe there are people who who go into it truly wanting to serve their constituents to represent. I mean that's the concept of democracy. But but I think what happens is that when they get there, the temptation

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: all the lobbyists and all of the all the

Jack Moore: That's right. That's exactly right.

Cynthia L. Clack: people, you know, whatever it is, whether whether your preference is alcohol or drugs or women or men or little boys or little girls. I mean, you know, all these These things are being

Jack Moore: Yep. Yep.

Cynthia L. Clack: offered to you and then the temptation and then it's it kind of they kind of build on this arrogance and I'm untouchable and nobody will do anything and you know and it's just they get sucked into it. So at whatever level people give up their integrity and they they

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: think that they will have be afforded the protection, that's where we start side slide sliding down that. Very slippery slope and as a society, as individuals and as a society. So so again, I don't just have this global negativity, but I do believe we need to be better people and we need to do better. And my theme in my book is listen to the children. I mean quit

Jack Moore: Yeah, but you I I think

Cynthia L. Clack: of listening.

Jack Moore: what I'm expressing is my fear is I'm with you and I think, you know, you've been a fabulous guest and you've opened my eyes to a lot of things, but if we have a system where the very people that benefit from the corruption, if you want to call it, I mean, th this this criminal if they're if they're benefiting it or to their benefit they cover it, where do we go? I mean, that was always sort of my concern as a form

Cynthia L. Clack: What a but I mean, you

Jack Moore: Six.

Cynthia L. Clack: know what I have been treated for all of these years. I mean in in In the course of this, you know, like juries will say, Award Cynthia Clack, you know, whatever, hundred thousand dollars in attorney's fees. The judge will say no. I mean they'll enter these rulings that the the juries and and what am I gonna do about it? Appeal it, you know. It it's like it's almost like they go, What you gonna do about it? I'm gonna

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Cynthia L. Clack: do this. I'm gonna, you know, what Cynthia Clack, what are you going to do about it? And so this book is my answer. I have spent a fortune in in storage fees keeping those files. Every single file, you know, for years. I mean, not just for the last 30 years, but all the way back 46 years. So from the time I went out on my own as a solo practitioner, I have every file that I have ever consulted with anybody. or represented them. And so I was able to go back and pull the cases that I thought were relevant for this book. I mean it's only a 250 page book, so it's not you know, it's not a hard read and it's not, you

Jack Moore: Yeah. Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: know But but what it is is like, you know, each one of us, what are we gonna do about it? Well, I wrote the book, I told the story. You you're what are you gonna do about it, Jack? You're gonna do the podcast, you're gonna interview the people

Jack Moore: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: and the story. So we each do what we're called to do. And that's what we do is we listen to our inner voice. And are we going to be people of integrity? Are we gonna be courageous? Are we gonna be cowards? And so look, I'm afraid somebody's gonna sue me or I'm afraid whatever.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Like no.

Jack Moore: Well, in all right, this brings up again, I'm always trying to use like collateral examples or something like that. But I did a bunch of shows right after the Fauci pled the fifth a hundred and fifteen times or a hundred and eleven, which I was like, hey, you know, I I think he's got a reason to believe that that's available. Then I hear lawyers coming out and said, Hey, once he made an opening statement under oath that he opened the door, that he waved his you know, all this pol legal stuff came up. But I would look in the comments this is where I'm going with this. I look in the comments on all the analysis of Fauci there. And everybody's like, hey, just like everything else, if they show that he was over there playing FTSE with the Wuhan lab because they took him out of the country because they said stop doing this gain of function research in the US he goes to China and most likely is directly involved in that which leads to a worldwide spread, they're not gonna do anything about it. Congress is gonna play their game, all these guys are gonna get viral moments, guys and gals, you know, like Fauci, you're a bad guy, aren't you? So they do all this pol political theory, but it's kinda like what I'm saying, the same thing in what you're bringing up. You're bringing this up, you're kind of showing the cor at least some level of corruption in the system. And it outrages people. People that are gonna watch this podcast are gonna be like, That's outrageous. Especially that when they hear that the that that the ad litum was literally saying, like, well, let's, you know, she's recanted. What two and a half year old recants that type of graphic testimony? It's bullshit. There's no way, unless coach, no child is gonna say anything about they're not gonna walk in and out pushing three, going, Hey, I got I gotta raise my hand and say something. I wanna recant the state. With three-year-old, they say what they say based upon the lived experience they've had in that point of life. They're not gonna volunteer or they're gonna recant. So I say all that to say if the very people who are guarding the system are making the choices, so again, American could be outraged if they thought that a person in the position that Anthony Fauci was in financially benefited from it, lied to Congress, lied to the American people. The what I saw in the comments, this is my point, they're like, so what? Congress can go out there and play nasty with them and yell at them and say all kinds of things. They're not gonna do anything. Nothing's gonna ever happen. So they see time after time, and I still think the president administration is running with a a lot of heat because of Epstein. What did he say? Hey, we're gonna release all the files and let you figure it out. Hell he's still running into that on the Kennedy assassination. They still won't release all of that. So the government keeps secrets. You find there's all these connections with people in powerful places, strange connections. And what we if we don't have an apparatus, if this justice system doesn't work in a way that justice is actually coming out of said system, what do we do? I mean, you're right. You're educating people as to the issue. I just don't know I just don't know what step we can take next because the very people that are in positions to have authority to make decisions like judges do, they appear to either be on the take, part of the system, something's going on. And if your judges are corrupt and into in Texas, let me ask you this, does your legislature pick or do the people vote for You vote for there, right? Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: People look for And and if there's a vacancy during the term, then the governor appoints the person to

Jack Moore: Right. Well in in I'm in a state where the General Assembly does six year appointments for judges. And you know, I used to teach a criminal justice class at a college and I said the only thing worse than the General Assembly picking is the people voting for It's like neither one of work. I mean, 'cause 'cause people could be

Cynthia L. Clack: Well well

Jack Moore: yeah, go ahead.

Cynthia L. Clack: yeah, we we can be duped 'cause we don't know. But but

Jack Moore: That's right.

Cynthia L. Clack: you know, because here's the thing and and I mean there's so many causes. There's so many things that are frustrating with our system and our world, but But I just want always each day take a step back and say, you know, we're still in the United States of America. We have the right to talk on this podcast and express our thoughts and our opinions. We need to speak the truth, but we don't need to be afraid either. But But what can we do? Well, you're doing what you are led to do by doing your podcast. I'm doing what I was led to do by practicing law, representing my clients,

Jack Moore: Right.

Cynthia L. Clack: but then when this disturbing pattern reveals itself and I felt strongly I needed to write this book I wrote this book. I mean, we have a society where we can do that, and that is not true in many parts of the world. So thank goodness that I can write a book. And and put it out to the world and be invited by you to speak on your podcast. So thank you for that. But that's what we do. And the thing is, I may not be able to affect anything in Washington, D.C. I may not be able to do anything to affect the people in Austin, Texas. But maybe I can help people wake up in my area of the state to you know, maybe somebody will step into those positions. Positions, run for office or whatever it may be. But the other thing is that I what I hope from this is that on a national scale that people will take this information and look around their home area and go, like, is this type of thing going on in my community? And

Jack Moore: Yeah. You've made an awareness. Yeah. Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: and because if we don't think it's possible that it could even go on, then then we just start believing that moms are coaching their children to tell these fabricated stories. And and I'm not saying it doesn't happen because of course there

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Cynthia L. Clack: are there are those isolated cases where children are not telling the truth and maybe a one of the parents coached the child into saying some false statement. But but but I think we need to explore that and and I and I think that's far more rare than it is truly going on. But but so much of of what's happening and has been happening for years is that just child after child is being called a liar. You know, they're just not being given the credibility. And that's that's what my concern is. So that's what I hope it's arranged.

Jack Moore: Yeah, I did I did domestic assault prosecution for two years and I hate to say it and again I don't want it to come off as being s sexist, but it was really like a very high percentage of women lied in these cases. They either said he wasn't hitting them Because they wanted him back or they're afraid of the repercussions later. Or when they did, I'd always go, I kinda wonder what else is going on here. And it tended to be affairs they were having or they wanted child custody. And then

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: I saw cases where I just don't think kids are naturally liars. They can be coached into saying things or exaggerating things. But there's, you know, from the mouths of babes, most of the time they're gonna be honest. They're

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah.

Jack Moore: g they're gonna they're going to be I agree with you on that, but that The use that I saw some parents, both the husband and the wife, or male and female, use their children against the other, God, it was sickening. And I know you've seen a lot of that. And it's just really dark

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes, I have.

Jack Moore: what people are willing to do at the expense of the emotional well being of their child. It's just it's bad. It's really, really bad.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: And I think that's really the answer. I think the answer is this is all bigger part of a bigger spiritual battle. I'm I made

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah.

Jack Moore: the comment and I want and I'd and I wanna say right now, I did not in any way w I I I just so admire what you're doing. That you're that you're taking the chance in the public square to put this out there. I'm just saying the frustration is the very same thing that we're appealing to, the justice system, is causing the very issue. And I agree with you. You may trigger some people to go, I didn't know about that. I'm gonna do further re I'm gonna run for office or I'm gonna push for better judges. We hope for that. But I just think

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: it's I just think it's like a system that attracts the very people you don't want in those positions. I just think it is you know, and I use the greatest example of all time, being from Virginia, George Washington. Washington literally did not want to be president, and he set the precedent of leaving after two terms with yeah, I don't want to deal with this anymore. He very much stuck by the script of what he thought the function of government was. Now, of course, two hundred and fifty years later, odd or two hundred plus years later, it's it's nice to step on Washington for all the political reasons people did. When you go back and look at the history, he he pretty much got it right as the role of the president, and it came from a guy who didn't want to be the The president, but he recognized in the formation of country, if there's any chance of survival, he probably had to be the guy to do it. So anytime somebody wants to run for something or be something, I always question what is it they really, really want. And then again, I think the wrong people end up in those positions. You want the person where the society's like. Because you're so virtuous and you're so good, we beg you to do this. And if that person's like, yeah, against all reservations, yeah, I'll do it because it's for the good of the people, who the hell does that? You know, it's it's not that kind of business. So.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Yeah. And and so like I say I I we have a complex society and

Jack Moore: Yeah, we do.

Cynthia L. Clack: complex issues and and I by no means can solve the problems of the world, nor can you, but

Jack Moore: No.

Cynthia L. Clack: we can can do our part. And and perhaps like

Jack Moore: No, I agree.

Cynthia L. Clack: writing a book or asking questions or interviewing people and putting stuff out to the world, we can uplift our society where people come away from watching this program perhaps and say, I'm going to do my part. Maybe I can do something to help a child or help a family and and maybe be a CASA worker or you know, sometimes we need to get loud and vocal about these children. Things like that. So, what whatever it is, you know, I think that if we listen to our inner voice, you said spiritual battles. So if we listen to our inner voice and follow the leadings of our inner voice, if that is the voice of integrity and goodness, then we'll we'll get to some solutions in this world. It's just that when we get lost by following the money trail or the power or the you know, the greed, that's when we start losing our way. And we need to get back on track.

Jack Moore: Cynthia Clack, I have absolutely

Cynthia L. Clack: Exactly.

Jack Moore: enjoyed this. You are a wonderful guest. I hope that we can stay in touch and maybe do this again sometime. So please tell everybody again. Tell them the entire title of the book, how they can get the book, where they can find you, go from there.

Cynthia L. Clack: Yeah. Okay. Cynth Cynthia Clack. Cynthia O. Clack, Discovering the Club is the name of the book. It's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. it's a print-on-demand book, so you you order it and it'll be coming in to you soon. and it's also available as an ebook. it's also probably any day now it'll start being available as an audiobook. on Audible and Spotify and wherever you get your audiobooks to. So I'm in Odessa, Texas. So, you know, you can look me up, give me a call if you have questions and we'll you know, we'll hopefully make a little change in this world.

Jack Moore: God bless you. God bless you. It's been a great show and you've been a great guest. Again, everyone, this is Moore to Consider Please like and subscribe. I mentioned Spotify, Apple, some of my podcasts. You can go on there and make a nice little review. But I think people want to hear shows like this, and I think they want to see that for if if nothing else, we've been c straight up objective. We're very objective. She's seen objective facts in her practice flaw, and God bless her for bringing this forward. But there seems to be some nastiness in the world, and we have to unite as a people to try to clean up the world that we're in and try to make it a better world and what that role is we never really know. We never really know what's gonna be best. But thanks again for being on.

Cynthia L. Clack: And thank you, Jack. I really appreciate it. God bless you.

Jack Moore: Thank you, dear. God bless you, sweetie.