Greed, Power & Corruption: Why Wall Street (1987) Is the Most Dangerous Movie Ever Made

Moore To Consider: More to consider. Jack, Laura, Laura, how are you, dear? Okay, we are doing our series of motion pictures. Therefore, I have on the cufflinks today. I have on the braces. We're going talk about fashion a little bit too. We're going to talk about old school fashion. I'm doing this because our theme or the subject of this particular podcast is Wall Street 1987. Now,

Laura: I'm fantastic.

Moore To Consider: How many s how many times would you say that you have seen this movie, Laura?

Laura: One.

Moore To Consider: I just read okay. So we're doing Pretty Woman, nineteen ninety film, if I'm not mistaken. And we talked about at the box office, it was a pretty big hit. And given the fact that it's Rich Guy Richard Geere with young prostitute lady, ⁓ Julia Roberts, it was sort of controversial today, not as much then. So we we did that whole thing. So then we were talking about Laura.

Laura: Yes.

Moore To Consider: Please tell everybody real quick, just thumbnail, not real quick. I'm not putting you ⁓ not rushing you. I just want you to say sort of what it is you do professionally as much as you want to say that would kind of give you an idea of how to analyze some of these characters.

Laura: ⁓ so I'm a psychotherapist and I have a movie channel, mental health in the movie. So I love doing that. Yeah.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. That's what you do, right? So you have your own channel where you do that. So you and I decided to start doing this because I see things through the lens I do. You see it through professional training. And also we both see things through our own personal experience. And we analyzed in Pretty Woman some characters, rich guy, possibly pushing a billionaire, young lady on the street who doesn't have a drug addiction, yet she's a prostitute. Things are rough. We thought she should have just gone and gotten a job at Walmart as a greeter, you know, it'd probably make as much money and do as well. It cuts the pimp out. But Wall Street, a lot of dynamic figures in that. And it's coming out in the 1980s, where when we look back, it was my favorite decade, because it's a decade when I'm in my 20s, and I think there's all possibilities. But it's a time that's looked back upon by a lot of historians as a decade of greed. I don't know really any decade. They don't try to pr you know promote a little bit of. In this whole idea of the whole capitalism versus collectivism and all the rest, this is the one of the poster child movies for excess and greed, fair.

Laura: Yeah, I think that's fair.

Moore To Consider: So you're gonna have characters. You're gonna have some driving forces in that. So let's just go ahead and get to the kind of nuts and bolts. 1987 film, Oliver Stone. Oliver Stone's dad, Lou Stone, had been on Wall Street during the time of the Depression, like leading into the Depression. So let me see something real quick on that, too. Oliver Stone is born 1946. So he's 79 years of age. And you got to figure his dad. If he's a stockbroker during that time of period, he's probably born near the turn of the 20th century. So he has a view of Wall Street, trading, stocks, etc., ⁓ or just the whole financial world based upon the experiences of his dad, which apparently weren't particularly great, especially during a time like the Great Depression. Major stars, Michael Douglas, Charlie Sheen, Daryl Hannah, Martin Sheen. ⁓ the the film we're gonna get into, but it's basically the story of Bud Fox, played by Charlie Sheen, who's a young stockbroker who goes to court and eventually wins over the heart of one Gordon Gecko played by Michael Douglas. The film itself was released in December of nineteen eighty-seven, December 11th. It's 126 minutes. Its budget was 16.5 million dollars in 1987 dollars. The box office was 43.8 million, including rentals, you know, back in the days of Blockbuster and all. It probably did some of that better even than it did at the box office, like at actually at theaters. Different time. So you've watched the movie now. Give me some of your first impressions of You know, kind of a thumbnail of what you think the movie shows. Is it just about the stock market? Is it just about the eighties or is it saying something more? Is it a bigger story?

Laura: ⁓ I think the big picture theme of it what jumped out to me was was the whole idea of of greed, of values and how the two can be in conflict.

Moore To Consider: Yeah, so I what you know, I anytime we do one of these, and that's why I I learned a lot of information about Pretty Woman when we did that last show, and I did the same thing with Wall Street. ⁓ one thing interesting about Wall Street, it was very much like trading places in that most people don't run around with that level of knowledge of what the stock market or trading. You know, you hear all kinds of terms all the time that are sort of jargon. of Wall Street and financial trading. So in Trading Places, a lot of people remember from 1983. I thought one of the most entertaining movies ever. ⁓ you know, Dan Aykroyd, Eddie Murphy. At the end to get back at the Duke brothers, ⁓ and Donna Michi was the other actor. We did that show before. I I think ⁓ I don't remember what show we were talking about, but I was talking about that cameo appearance. ⁓ it was Pretty Woman because I was talking about ⁓ the one actor Who had been a prominent actor. And then I was trying to remember the other actor, and it was Donamichi, who have the bit part or the cameo appearance in coming to America. They had been the Duke brothers. So the Duke brothers in trading places had made this bet, which basically ruined the lives of Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. Then at the end of the movie, they go to actually down to ⁓ World Trade Center one, and they're down at the stock market. I don't know if the stock market would actually was out of there, but you see you see the buildings when they're going in, and they do a thing where they find out that the orange crop report is not bad. They give the Duke brothers false information. They try to play the stock market, the numbers and all, and they ruin them in one day of trading. And then when you watch the movie, you're like, what the hell just happened? And I say that to say kind of the same thing in Wall Street. You see Michael Douglas on the phone. When Charlie Sheen first gets his opportunity to make it into the office, he's like, Well, get some negative ⁓ control and do this and and and get fourteen of those and nineteen of these, and and these talking futures, and and you know, so I listened to a guy kind of go into it. And basically what he was saying is, and and Michael Douglas, and we're gonna talk about this, his character, Gordon Gecko, is based upon several people in the 80s who were considered to be corporate raiders, and many of them skirted. The legal restraints of the system to do what they're doing. So I'm listening to what this guy's saying he's actually doing. And what Douglass did, or Gordon Gecko in the in the in the movie, as a corporate raider, is you're basically running around and trying to get into businesses and get enough control to basically fleece the business. You just you're taking all their money. You artificially pump up stock value, then dump it, make profits. And so you look at him and say, and this is kind of where we're going with the whole discussion, what is a Michael Douglas? Now, in this whole argument about collectivism, capitalism, many people don't think about the fact that your average M1A1 millionaire out there who owns a small business, drives a beater car, they got two kids in school, they don't show their wealth at all. They may have an estate, or they may have a ⁓ not estate, but They may have a net worth of X, but you'd never know it because they're working on margins of profit at the pizza shop or something like that. Well, you know what they do? They create a couple jobs for some cooks and a couple, you know, three jobs for delivery people. So you got a bunch of kids in the neighborhood or kids in a community that get a job, not making themselves rich, all because two people take the risk of entrepreneurs and go out there and run a pizza shop. So people just go like, ⁓ these millionaires are terrible people. Well, then now, of course, with Bernie Sanders becoming a millionaire, now it has to be billionaires. But the point about Douglas is he ain't producing anything. And in that speech he gives Charlie Sheen at the end, when Charlie Sheen famously said, and I went back and looked at that because I mentioned that in another show we did, he did say, I was thinking about, I don't know how much you waterski behind yachts, but he says, How many yachts can you water ski behind? And you know, Michael Douglas has the drink, and he goes, that's not the point. And the point is, it's made out by some of the other analysis I've seen of the movie, is it's never enough. And when you talk to people that gamble, they don't gamble because they're trying to achieve net worth or financial stability. They gamble because of the risk. The risk is the seduction, fair.

Laura: Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Moore To Consider: Now, you could say that when you play games, you go to the casino, you go to a card table, you understand the risk, and you're not really in control of the outcome at all. What Douglas is doing, or Gecko in this role, he is cheating. He's cheating. So we get into the insider trading thing. And it's funny, I used to mention that ⁓ as a criminal law professor. I would have these times when I would tell students.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: Don't ever speak to the police. And I'll tell all the audience, don't ever talk to the police. If the police like, yeah, you're you're not a suspect, but we want to talk to you, but don't talk because you're invariably you're gonna say something stupid or you're gonna s open a path. The reason they want to talk to you is not because they're after your neighbor Jimmy. They're after you, but they're gonna use this. ⁓ we're just trying to clear some things up, so don't talk. So one time I said, if you if you want to know more about that, check out the story of Martha Stewart. And the students are like, who's that? You so I have to kind of describe first of all who Martha Stewart is. And then I said, they thought she was involved in insider trading. So some federal agents come to her and ask some questions. I got nothing to hide. And in giving her statement to these federal agents, she was a little bit wrong about some numbers. They end up charging her and they put her in one of these hotel type of ⁓ you know, lockup ⁓ incarceration centers ⁓ because she's Martha Stewart. But she ends up, I don't know, pulling six months or something like that. The charge and conviction was for being less than truthful to a federal agent. It wasn't for anything else. They couldn't, they couldn't prove the insider trading. So then, of course, invariably a student, this was 15 years ago, some student raises their hand and goes, Mr. Morse, what's insider trading? I'm like, that's, and this is literally what I said in class. That's like when Bud Fox tells Gordon Gecko about Blue Star Airlines. And of course, none of them got the reference because they're not old enough. They don't get it. So I pulled up the clip. So this brings up part of the analysis. I'm running on and on, but I want to get to you on this analysis. One of the videos I watched when somebody was breaking down the film makes a comparison with Bud Fox and Gordon Gecko. Just throwing out there. Do you know what that comparison related to? When they were in the car, okay, remember when Charlie Sheen blows it?

Laura: No idea.

Moore To Consider: Basically the stocks, he gave him that million dollar check in the restaurant. First of all, he said, buy some, buy some ⁓ bu buy some of the blue star. The blue star, of course, makes him some money overnight. Then they had the meeting in the ritzy restaurant. And remember, Douglas is like, hey, what do you think of this? And he hands him a million dollar check. Remember that he goes, open my account, here's a million bucks. And he goes, do some coverage of this, do some stuff offshore, you know, it's all this, do all these clandestine things behind the, you know, and make some investments and see what happens. So then they all blow up. They none of them work. So then they have the meet me at the gym. Well, matter of fact, remember Charlie Sheen comes back to the officer like, hey, Gordon Gecko's people are on the line. You better get your ass over there. You're in trouble or something, because everything he invested in, doing his regular stock broker analysis stuff failed. So he said, let's go over and meet at the club, the athletic club. And they play squash. And when they're playing, you know, Charlie Sheen can't keep up. ⁓ Michael Douglas is smoking 40 packs or 40 cigarettes a day and he's beating his ass. So then they go into the sauna or the steam room. And he says, Look, I I've got people analyzing staffs, stocks all over the place. I don't need someone like you starts to walk out and Sheen's like, Wait a minute, wait a minute. I am great. And he goes, Follow me. I'll tell you more. So they get into the limousine. In the backseat of the limousine, this is of course the key part of the movie. He goes, I want you to stop telling me about the stocks. I want you to find me information. Remember that whole thing? This is like where Charlie Sheen gets hooked. So he's and and then he then there's another important thing was when Douglas makes the comment, you had what it took to get into my office. After 300 days of cold call and trying to get in, he finally gets in on his birthday with a box of Cuban cigars. That's what finally gets him through the threshold. So Douglass makes the comment. I'd say Douglas gecko makes the comment. You had what it took. Question now, son, is are you gonna hit or bud?

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: Are you going to have what it takes to stay? That speech was given in the back of that limousine. But there's something that Gecko gives up to him in information because remember, all right, I'll give you the hint there. Charlie Sheen, so what about hard work? What does he say? He goes, what about it? My dad died, dropped dead of a heart attack, working his ass off, blah, blah, blah, you know, with tax bills and the rest. So what's he giving up?

Laura: I don't know that well.

Moore To Consider: And it's part of that too, is he also made the comment in the club. He goes, those Harvard NBA types, they don't add up to dog shit. Give me guys that are poor, smart, and was it poor and smart ⁓ and hungry. He's that guy. You know, he went through SUNY, you know, he he's a state unor ⁓ state of Unor State of New York University guy. He's basically saying All the and he says all these Ivy League schmucks, I'm I'm I'm you know, they're sucking my kneecaps. He makes all these comments to say, I'm the poor guy. All right. So what's Charlie Sheen's relationship with his dad? He thinks his dad is getting beaten up by the system. And his dad's got a little bit of Marxism in it, or because remember when they have the fight over how they're going to redo Blue Star and they have the fight at his place when Gordon Gecko is there and they go out to the elevator. You know, he goes, What have you ever done for me, Dad? It's always your man, always your man, the union, always that. And then he said, I never judged a man by the size of his wallet. You know, and that they have that whole fight, you know, that's really great.

Laura: Yes.

Moore To Consider: movie, a great aspect of the movie. So you get from Charlie Sheen, he feels poor he feels bad about growing up poor. Thinks dad was somewhat exploited. Matter of fact, he made the statement to him. He goes, You never had the guts to go out there and stake your own claim. And what's Charlie Sheen saying? Well one he's giving him money and and that's so even today. He's given him money when they meet that one time because son I don't get it. You make fifty thousand dollars a year

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: And you can't pay your student loan debt and you can't then he talks about what it costs to be in Manhattan. He goes, Well, why don't you come home back to Yonkers or wherever they are? Why don't you come on back home, live with your mo with your mom and I, and you know, I I can't do that. I gotta I gotta be where everything's cooking. So he's got that really crummy apartment in Manhattan. ⁓ you know what, eight hundred and thirteen square feet maybe. That's all he's got, and he's paying I don't know. It seems like to me he said something like fifteen hundred dollars a month or something back then. Do the math. That's ten times that today. But ⁓ anyway, the point was made where I'm going with this is the point was made, they're the same guy.

Laura: Who's the same guy?

Moore To Consider: Gordon Gecko is basically saying, my dad dropped dead of a heart attack, working his ass off. It didn't work. Yes, exactly. Right, right, right. Yes, yes. Now, well, that turns out to be true too. That turns out to be true too. Right. Well, that's one of the things that's pointed out is what Stone was after was after this like biblical fable of the kid who's chasing riches is struck down with.

Laura: So Bud and Bud and Gordon are the same guy. Okay. I thought you were saying Bud and his dad are the same guy. It does, yes.

Moore To Consider: Do the right thing. And this is now they they they gave an actual ⁓ a character name for that, but I'm I'm at a loss now. But this was mentioned in some of the analysis I saw. Bud Fox is every guy that's chasing the rainbow, and then realized there's a lot of ugliness in the directions he's going, comes to some epiphany, figures it all out. And then in the scene when he's at his dad's bed after his dad's had another heart attack, I'm so proud of you, son. Yeah, because he's come around. Then he actually grows what it takes to go to ⁓ Sir Ol Sir Wildman to basically turn around and screw Gecko. I mean, that becomes the whole thing. All right. ⁓ some other things that are interesting to people sometimes. ⁓ yeah, and so Gecko, some of the people mentioned is Dennis Levine or Levine, I guess it would be, Ivan Boskey, which a lot of people have heard of, Michael Milken, which most everybody's heard of. They throw all these people together, and Sir Lawrence Wildman is supposed to be based upon the corporate raider Sir James Goldsmith. ⁓ now, originally, did you ⁓ come across in any of your study? Well, you just watched the movie, but do you know who they originally had ⁓ who Stone had eyes for to be Gordon Gecko? Warren Beatty said, not a good movie, I pass. Doesn't want it. Yep.

Laura: Okay. Really? I thought he would have been good in that role.

Moore To Consider: Yeah, I th I I think so. And it's funny because one of the things I watch was the Siskel and Ebert. And Michael Douglas goes on to win the Academy Award for Best Actor, and they're totally split. So Siskel and Ebert, wow, I'm gonna say it was Siskel. He's just like it was a he said that Michael Douglas performance was way too over the top, way too performative. And Ebert's like, that's one of the best I've ever seen. So they're like back and forth. And of course, he ends up winning the Academy Award. ⁓ he was smoking, I'm that's why I use that number. On the set, they said he smoked 40 cigarettes a day. And Stone was on him like, dude, you got to slow down. You know, every moment he's lighting up, lighting up. He gets a speech coach to handle all the rapid-fire speeches he has to give. The speech he gives famously, Greed is good, was based upon an actual speech delivered by one of these corporate raiders. So many of these things are in there. Now, it it's of course, this is every movie we ever talk about. What if? What if Warren Beatty had played that same role? They have to kind of imagine a different vision. But right now, we're settled on, we can't help it. We're settled on Michael Douglas is Gordon Gecko. Fair?

Laura: Yes.

Moore To Consider: So we'll never know what that other performance would have been. Now, the first choice or a choice for Bud Fox was Tom Cruise. So in that time, Stone has Tom Cruise doing Born on the Fourth of July military movie, Vietnam era movie. And he's just coming out of platoon, which is highly acclaimed, with Charlie Sheen. And he goes with Charlie Sheen. They said in some part because he kind of saw Charlie Sheen like a son. Then he goes to Charlie Sheen and says, Who do you want to be your dad? And it was either going to be ⁓ Jack Lemon. I think it was Jack Lemon. I'm trying to think if it was Jack Lemon or Walter Mathow because they're so associated. I think it I think it was Lemon, or your own dad. And who does Charlie Sheen go with? He goes, he goes with his own dad, right? So

Laura: His own dad.

Moore To Consider: That is one of those dynamics that many people who analyze this come into. They're like, those fights, like in the fight in the elevator, that was real. There was something going on. No two f no father-son gets along perfectly. So this is a chance for Charlie Sheen to pump out some ⁓ yeah, remember when I was in the tenth grade and you did, you know, you you you you wouldn't let me drive the car. I mean, some of that's coming out. It's it's pretty natural. ⁓ the love is natural too, though. So when they're doing the bedside, he's crying because his dad just had another heart attack. That's real. I'm sure getting to that space as an actor where you're trying to imagine your dad on a bed like my dad could die right now, not so hard when Martin Sheen's on the bed or makes it easier. Now, so ⁓ that is the Charlie Sheen character, Bud Fox. one other one other character that was brought up quite a bit in analysis was Daryl Hannah. Now, there is a Award, if you want to call it that, for the worst performance of the year. I think they said Razzie. Right. Daryl Hannah won it for this movie. So they said that what's quite interesting is you have a person who's winning best actor and in the same movie. I don't think it's bad. I think she plays a level of conflict.

Laura: Razzie. Yeah.

Moore To Consider: That seems appropriate for it. I think she really does fall in love with Bud Fox, her character. You don't.

Laura: I'm not a Daryl Hanna fan. I don't think she's very good in anything. ⁓ I mean she's probably a lovely person. I don't think ⁓ her performances are very nuanced. She seems the same in everything. She's yeah, she's just the same in everything.

Moore To Consider: Okay. Okay. So the argument that I heard was she is philosophically against greed and accumulation of wealth and all the rest. So to put her in this position where she's basically whored out to a guy because he's given her all this business, and and of course that's a major part of the movie. When she comes in and he's fourteen pizzas in plus the vodka, whatever the hell else he's drinking. And he goes, We'll be just fine. She goes, I'm not here to be just fine anymore. If you break with Gordon, I'm out. ⁓ really? Okay. You know, and then she's walking out the door. He goes, Hey, leave the key. She goes, No problem, throws the keys back. But we really could have been something special, whatever. Get the hell out. They fight. You know, there was an alternative ending made. I've seen it. That was actually if they filmed, and you know what the alternative ending is? At the end, when Charlie Sheen Is let out of the car by mom and dad. And the dad goes, Well, maybe in some kind of twisted way, you've learned a big lesson here and all the rest. You know, Dad, I'm going to prison. Yeah, well, okay. You know, but you're going to come back out and you still got a chance to be with Blue Star. They're still going to offer you something for what you did. Then he gets out and he goes up the steps to that courthouse in Manhattan, I guess it is. Right? Well, in the alternative ending, Darryl Hannah's on the steps.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: And I'm No, that's why that's why it's an alternative ending. But ⁓ now the other behind the scenes, Sean Young, the actress that plays Michael Douglas's or Gordon Gecko's wife, she wanted that role and thought Daryl Hannah was awful in it. So they said there was some tension there. This is what behind the scenes pulling. And apparently her and Charlie Sheen did not get along at all, like horribly. And he

Laura: That would never happen. Never happen.

Moore To Consider: A matter of fact, they said in one scene, did the tape kick me on the back or something and put a put a note on her back? So there was some behind the scenes fighting there, but she did not like her role, Sean Young. She did not like hers and didn't want to be in that. And these are those kind of things behind the scenes. You're you're like, really? Is is it seems kind of juvenile that you're in a major motion picture with one of the best directors in all of Hollywood and you're fighting over what Role. But I mean, I you know, you want roles because those roles change your career potentially. So what about ⁓ Hal Holbrook as Lou Mannheim? He's talked about a lot. He's the guy that pulled Charlie Sheen aside and said, A man comes accoun comes to the abyss and when he looks in it, he sees nothing looking back, and that's when he finds his character. Then he he said the other thing. He made the comment about ⁓

Laura: Who is that? ⁓ gotcha, gotcha, yes. Yes, yes.

Moore To Consider: ⁓ something like, you know, ⁓ what you're doing right now is like being a little bit pregnant or something. But but he goes, money makes you the other comment he made was money makes you do things that you don't want to do. Well, in that, his cohort there, ⁓ in the ⁓ I think it's John C. McGinley, ⁓ his buddy there in the pit when they're working together at Jackson Steinem. He said something about, you know, Lou's a guy. Well, Charlie Sheen's character, Bud Fox, Lou's really a guy that ⁓ that'd really want to be like, he goes, he lost all of his equity in the last stock crash or something like, you know, he's he's a nobody. He's he's a nobody. Yeah, he's a noble guy. He has good character, but he's not a player. He's not making the big money. Speaking of which, he was also the one that when Charlie Sheen at the opening of the movie, Sheen's kind of, you know, shuffling papers, doing his thing, and he goes, Hey, bud, but what he goes, Are you forgetting he hadn't made his phone call to Gordon Gecko yet? So he calls and gets the receptionist. And as he's waiting for the receptionist to pick up, he goes, that Gecko, he's something. And he said he had an ethical bypass surgery as a child. And this is one of the things that people picked up on and pointed out. And then he said, yeah, right after the Challenger disaster, he was selling NASA shorts. Now the movie is based in 1985. You see that at the opening, the opening of the movie. The movie comes out in 87, and it's in a time when a stock market crash is coming. But they go back two years to 1985. The Challenger was 1986. So some people that watch these things were like, hey, they made a comment, and then somebody else in the comments I saw said, Well, you don't trade in NASA anyway. you know, it's a government agency, it's not a stock that's traded. But they throw that line out that Gecko was so, you know, unethical or heartless that he would literally sell a stock short after a disaster. And yet that disaster had not yet happened. Okay. We kinda know the whole plot. If people have not watched the movie, I would say you kinda have to watch it for yourself. But to put it simply And and kind of going back several minutes ago when I was talking about what he used to tell the class, it's like when Bud Fox tells Gordon Gecko about Blue Star Airlines. You can see this dynamic that Sheen, I think, I say Sheen, Bud Fox, doesn't really know exactly what Michael Douglas is. And this is a point that some of the Wall Street types made. He's smart. If you look at this character for who he is from a financial world standpoint, He's smart, but he's cheating. I mean, there's people that can play poker and they know how to cheat. I mean, it doesn't mean they're not good poker players. But I think that what you see in this is Bud Fox believes that Gecko is a genius. When he says it to him, he goes, You're like a genius. I've studied you, you know, and I went to NYU as well. So we study you at NYU. And then you get in there and you realize he's just a bully. So If I can take and manipulate stock prices, I can work from the inside, destroy corporations, and then parachute out with a lot of money, that that doesn't make me a financial genius. Right? I mean, so so when he goes in there, what is he really trying to sell? I'm a good stockbroker and I want to be in your orbit because I know that you're radically rich and you must be doing something right.

Laura: Agree. Mm-hmm.

Moore To Consider: He's got a hero complex, which a lot of us can do. You know, you can see somebody that does what you want to be. I want to go attach myself to that person, learn the ropes from them. But I think when he goes in, he still thinks in that moment when he first gets that ⁓ that contact with him. He's in the room. He still thinks he can convince that guy that he's worth it to come in and analyze stocks. So he's like, here's one. It's got upside above, and he goes, yeah, he puts it in the shredder. He goes, ⁓ bad and bad business model, bad unions. I don't like this, I don't like that. And he goes, come on, tell me something I don't know. It's my birthday. And then he takes a card someone giving and puts that in a shredder. And then you see this moment. Okay, in four people to get the backstory on the insider trading part. Charlie Sheen's dad, Martin Sheen, in that part, Bud Fox's dad. works as a mechanic, like a union rep head guy in the mechanics wing doing maintenance for these planes in this airline. And they have a suit brought against them. I think it was a malfunction in a door hatch. I don't know whether people fell out of the plane. I don't know exactly what happens, but when Charlie Sheen's down on his luck again and has not yet had his meeting with ⁓ Michael Douglas, Gordon Gecko, They go to he goes over to meet his dad because he needs money, like he always does. And they go out to this local bar and he goes, Dad, things are kind of tight. And this dude's like, What are you doing? 50 grand a year and you can't keep up with your bills. And then he brings out cash. He goes, Dad, Dad, don't embarrass me. And he goes, Like, don't embarrass me. Son, you're always asking for money. Sorry, I'm not doing it in the way that you want, but here's 300 bucks. And then he said, How are things going? He goes, ⁓ they're they're testing my union guys now. They're drug testing me. They're doing something that he that he feels like is invasive and I'm pissed off about that. Well, we do have one positive thing, son. He goes, Well, what's that, Dad? And he goes, Remember that lawsuit that got brought against us for poor maintenance? Or we were named as a party, as a defendant for poor maintenance when this plane disaster happened. Yeah. It was the damn manufacturer all along. It was a defect in the manufacturer of the plane, not their maintenance. ⁓ really? He goes, Yeah. Once we he goes, even the plaintiffs don't know yet. You know, he goes, Really, Dad? And he goes, son, you're getting that mischievous look you had when you were four. What do you think? And he goes, ⁓ nothing dead. Kind of nothing dead. Okay, well, you take care. So now he gets up the next morning and there's a when you see him open the paper and it says Blue Star Airlines exonerated in whatever. You know, I take that back. I think that's the day after the meeting with Gecko, because yeah, because he nobody knows yet. So anyway, no one knows. So if you were trading on Blue Star and you know that they're getting ready. To have a big pump in the stock price because they just got relieved of a hundred thousand, I mean a hundred million dollar lawsuit against them. They become a different company overnight. And the father says this is gonna give us a chance to open up new lines, get new planes, blah, blah, blah. So what happens with back to Charlie in the room? He's tanking. He keeps throwing out stocks and he keeps giving them every A to B on or A to Z on what's wrong with them. Then he says, tell me something I don't know. And then he's like, ⁓ Blue Star. Yeah, it's an airline. What about it? I hate unions, whatever. He goes, ⁓ seems like that they might be getting a favorable decision on a on a legal, on a lawsuit. How do you know? I, I just know. That was his line. I just know. So then Gordon Gecko shoots the the the look at one of his guys, like, okay, who is this kid? Right. And he goes, You got a card? Give me a card. Okay. He goes, I listen to a hundred people today. I choose one. And he's like comes back and he tells Marvin, his buddy, he's like, he saw right through me. He goes, I don't worry about it. There's other fish in the sea, that kind of thing. He goes, he felt he was exposed. And then he gets the phone call, right? At the end of the day, tell you what, buddy, buy me some of that blue star, boom, boom, boom. Then we're gonna have lunch tomorrow. So I say that to say you can understand in that moment that he went to what he knew to be illegal and possibly even in the eyes of some unethical. Because he was tanking.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: Is that a lack of character?

Laura: I think it's desperation.

Moore To Consider: Right. And I

Laura: A and and a lack of character.

Moore To Consider: Yeah, it it could be right. But but it be honest, if he had a if he had a different character, he wouldn't have been in the office in the first place. He wouldn't have spent three hundred days cold calling a guy that he may or may not ever get five minutes with. But he chooses to do it. So in the speech that Gecko gives, all right. So for everybody to kind of get the get to get the plot, after that, he starts doing after he goes to the gym, plays squash.

Laura: Yes.

Moore To Consider: In that sauna scene I talked about, or not sauna, but I think Steam Room, in that Steam Room situation, he's like, Look, that's when he says, Look, son, I got plenty of people analyzing stock. I don't need another one. ⁓ but right before that, when when Charlie Sheen has to let him know what he already knows, is that they had a bad day on the stock market, he goes, Hey boss, ⁓ we we took a kind of a hit today. He goes, Well, I guess ⁓ Not everybody that you not all of these stocks that you're analyzing and you're selling me on, your dad works as a union rep or he works in the the shop. You know about my dad? He goes, it's kind of my business is to know things. So now he puts them on Sir Lawrence Wildman and the Anacott Steel and he goes down that whole road. So that becomes their next big project. Then he decides, Charlie Sheen, well, wait a minute, dad's struggling. Why don't we save Blue Star Airlines? And then he sells them out on Blue Star Airlines. I'll let everybody else just watch the movie. ⁓ but in the end, this is what I want to know from you, Laura. Does Charlie Sheen do anything that you would consider honorable, noble in the end?

Laura: Yes. He well, I don't know that he has a lot of choice in the matter, but he does break up with Darryl Hannah and he wears a wire. But is that to get out of what he did or is you know, does his conscience finally catch up with him?

Moore To Consider: Well, it was the desi Yeah, the wearing the wire on that part. So he's gonna go down. One of the other pivotal moments is ⁓ and if you know this, Oliver Stone always does a cameo in every movie. So he plays the stock guy in the movie. It's his son that plays Gordon Gecko's son in the movie, who's now I think a director himself. So they go to the house at one point, Gordon Gecko's home, and he's got a lawyer sitting there. And he goes, Hey, we're giving you POA, power of attorney. And the lawyer makes it clear your ass is on the line. Handle all these transactions for Mr. Gecko in ways that protect yourself as best you can. Because there's lines in the POA that says he does not know. And Douglas is like, hey, just be careful. Move stuff around offshore, on whatever. You know, it's just like, hey, no piece of cake. So he's hung out to dry. When all this starts to go bad. Charlie Sheen swinging in the wind, basically, because he's been playing with his friend from from ⁓ college that went to law school. He's he's done a lot illegal as all part of this thing to get at Wildman. And now as it's starting to go down, he's arrested, of course. He's brought right off the floor. He's taken off the floor, he's publicly embarrassed and, you know, perp walked out of there. And now it's like, okay, they have the goods on me. And the guy in large part responsible for the situation I'm in is me. And Gordon Gecko has his part. So does he want to take down Gordon Gecko too? So he wears a wire, he goes out to Central Park, gets his ass kicked a little bit kicked around by Gordon Gecko. And that whole delivery of line by Gecko is important too, because he goes, you know, he punches him and he goes, I taught you all this. I gave you your manhood. Remember that? The punch out in the rain, you know, out there in Central Park. He punches him and then he says, You never would have had Daryl Hannah. I gave you her, you know, I gave you this. I gave you your manhood. I get you know, I gave you everything. And you treated me like this, and you now this is a guy saying this who sat right in front of Charlie Sheen's dad, or Bud Fox's dad, and promised them to reconstruct.

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Moore To Consider: And save the airline that this guy works for and then completely screwed him out of everything. So for him to say, I gave you all this trust, I gave you your manhood and you did this to me. I think what changes though now looking at the movie is have you watched this the part two that came out in twenty ten, I think?

Laura: I didn't know there was a part two.

Moore To Consider: Yeah. So they did ⁓ Wall Street Money Never Sleeps, which was released, yeah, September twenty-fourth, twenty ten. So whatever you think happened with Bud Fox, you fast forward to twenty ten without basically giving away this plot too much. Michael Douglas goes, Michael Douglas, Gordon Gecko goes to prison. He gets out. His son, the one that was played By Oliver Stone's kid when he's two years old, three years old, whatever in the movie, he dies of an overdose. And Michael Douglas goes on after the first movie to have a daughter. And now the daughter wants nothing to do with him. So there's all kinds of human dynamics going on because he's been released from prison after eight years, I think, or something like that. And he gives the appearance that he's trying to mend things with his daughter. And she's involved with another guy with ambition. Watch the movie for yourself. But the and there ends up being a scene where Gordon Gecko is ⁓ at one of the major, ⁓ gosh, I can't remember if it was a play that was going on or it was an art show or it was something, you know, something ritzy with all kinds of people, a lot of caviar, a lot of, you know, diamond rings and ⁓ lots of ⁓ champagne in the background. So it's it's a place where the jet setters are. And while he's there and he's kind of spinning around in some of these people that know him from the past to some degree, here comes Charlie Sheen. Okay, so let's do the math. Charlie Sheen was born in the 60s, probably about 1965, because I think he was 22 when he did that movie, right? So he's born in 65, 75, 85, 95, ⁓ 2000. Yeah, he's 45-ish now. Yeah, probably about right. He's about 45 years old in this scene, right? So he played a 22-year-old. Right out of college base. Well, he's playing a 24 year old, maybe, but he was 22 when he played the part. So he is a young guy. So he comes up with two 20-somethings, one on each arm, right? And he goes, Gordon Gecko. He goes, Bud Fox, how's the world treating you? And he goes, This is Emily and this is Elizabeth, or just something like that, you know. And he goes, I'm jet setting. So he kind of, and he goes, they they take shots at each other. In this scene. So it's a cameo appearance of Charlie Sheen in Wall Street, Money Never Sleeps. And they kind of take little shots at each other, stay out of trouble. How about that? You know, you take care, whatever. But I don't see a reformed Bud Fox like truly, he's not a family man. He's not living in the suburbs. Right. Yeah. I well, yeah. Well, and you wonder about that. If you got a guy with that level of ambition.

Laura: I'm not surprised.

Moore To Consider: And he gets burned and he spends four or five years in some federal, federal, you know, prison, which is probably not, I don't know, for blue-collar people. I mean, for white-collar crime like that, it's probably not the worst. There's probably not a lot of gang ⁓ related ⁓ death squads in there or something like that. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know exactly what he was exposed to in lockup, but once he gets out, I think there's a possibility. It's like that's the worst it can get. Right. Isn't there some I mean, it it definitely gave the impression that they're winking and nodding, like, yeah, we ended up having to spend some time, but we know the risk is worth the rewards. Possibly. Now, the fact the fact that he's got two young hotties with him type of thing would imply he hasn't settled down, ⁓ whatever, you know. And it also would imply he's probably not in the worst financial situation for having come out of what he's come out of. ⁓ but

Laura: I can see that.

Moore To Consider: That again changes your perception of Charlie walking up those steps to his repentance, et cetera. Now that you see that down the road 30 years, maybe he didn't get much of the message. But you only know that from seeing a movie that comes out in twenty ten to give you a little bit more of the story of what happened in the intervening years. But You could have come out in nineteen eighty seven, like, I bet that Charlie Sheen really figured it out. He went on to be a really solid guy. He met a really nice girl. He's got two point three kids and a dog and everything, a picket fence. Then that gets destroyed in twenty ten because you're like, Charlie didn't Charlie didn't end up that way. All right. How much do you buy that they're the same guy?

Laura: Ha ha ha. ⁓ I think they're very much the same guy. It's just a matter of degree. And and the fact that I think if Charlie could have been successful and unimpeded, he would have been Gordon Garretko.

Moore To Consider: Okay. Well, when you say that too, there's a really another important line. So when everything's cooking, he makes it pitch for Darryl Hannah. When he when he when he goes to the house, you can tell that Gordon Gecko is definitely like, you brought the papers over to sign, then Wildman shows up. But when he brings over Sean Young, the wife, comes over and kind of messes things up and goes, ⁓ and ⁓ you came in from the city with a long drive and everything. You want to drink? And then you see Gordon Gecko is like, Yeah, yeah. Give him a drink. Yeah, let him meet some of the people. Cause first of all, he's like he's like the help. He d he doesn't get to stay. He wants to kick him out, but now the wife comes up and kind of offers him a drink. And, you know, so now he's moseying about and he meets the guy. ⁓ the one that ⁓ Gordon Gecko refers to as ⁓ the GQ guy, but he's putting her toes to sleep or whatever. He's Mr. GQ. That's the guy she's dating. And then he's makes his pitch for, which Douglas finds out for, which brings up another important scene. God was this ever discussed. That phone that Douglas has on the beach, and I heard one guy said as the sun was setting, it was when the sun was coming up, because he calls him at 0500, you know, 0 dark 30. He calls him in the morning and like nothing can be no painting can capture the beauty of the sun rising or whatever. Do you know what that phone weighs? Two pounds.

Laura: No idea.

Moore To Consider: In today's dollars and constant inflation dollars, it was $8,000. So people are discussing or arguing over was it the was it the first use of a cell phone in a motion picture? Now people are claiming one of the shots was in a James Bond movie, he has a cord ⁓ and what looks like the old style just ⁓ you know, house phone in a car, and he brings it up to speak on.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: So it may have been some of the same technology as far as a wireless signal, but it wasn't the same kind of phone. So when Douglas is on that phone, that becomes a thing. Now all the rich people are out trying to buy these things. Like so that was unheard of. ⁓ But anyway, ⁓ he makes that phone call that morning and says, Hey, so I guess ⁓ word on the street is you kind of made a play at at ⁓ Daryl Hanno, and he's like, ⁓ I didn't have much to say. And he said, Well, you better move in because, like I said, GQ Flash Guy is putting her toes to sleep. You might want to jump now. So he ends up going to dinner with her or going to lunch. He pitches, you know, that a Gordon and I are, you know, conquering the world together. Then he goes and buys the place for 900 grand. You know, he gets he gets the the the high-rise place and they're making dinner that night. You know, then it's the love-making scene with the wind blowing in, you know, everything. And then what does he do? He's got the house, he's got the money flowing, he's got the girl. And remember, this was, I thought, a pivotal moment in the movie. He goes out on the balcony, he goes, Who am I? Remember that? Literally says, Who am I? And so it's already, he has no sign at that. point, I would say, that it's all getting ready to crash. He may know that he's walking on a tightrope, but he's got the girl in there. They just had the wonderful dinner. He's living in the $900,000, you know, spread there, you know, in Manhattan, etc. And yet he gets up and says, Who am I? And she, bud, come back to bed. And then he's out there like, who am I? Okay. That is a lot to take on, isn't it? And like, What appears to be six weeks to six months. You're a nobody stockbroker getting money from your dad to multi or you know, ⁓ lots of income. You're running with Gordon Gecko, and you've got Daryl Hannah Yeah. And I I think he's much younger than the party's playing. Cause like I said, I think ⁓ I am pretty sure I'm gonna say Charlie Sheen. I'm gonna say 1965. I'm gonna guess he was born in 65. September third, nineteen sixty-five.

Laura: Yeah. And he's very young, too.

Moore To Consider: So when they're filming this movie, I don't think he's 22. Because the movie's released in December of 87. Probably a lot of the time they're filming this, he's 21, getting ready to turn 22. So you figure somebody that went to college and got a bachelor's degree kind of on time, 18 out of high school, 22 out of college. He's that guy. When the movie opens, it looks like to me he's probably been there a year. Doing what he's doing. So he's probably a 22 year old playing a 24 year old, let's say. But you're right. He's very, very young. He he's very, very young. But I think one of the driving forces is ⁓ and that's why I picked up on, and I think I'm I'm pressing the fact on Gordon Gecko, when Charlie Sheen has tanked with him and he's basically given him this ultimatum either you get me information, other words, get me insider trading information. And risk your your license and your life and you know incarceration. You either do that or get the hell out of the car because you're of no other value to me. And what does he come back? What about hard work? What about hard work? What if it's okay? What about hard work? My dad, ⁓ he he dropped dead of a heart attack with tax bills. You know, he goes, Come on, guy, get it. And then he's like, ⁓ yeah, there's guys out there making 400k ⁓ K a year flying first class. He goes, but if you want to be a player, and I'm talking a player, you need to be liquid. 40, 50, 100 million dollars. Now you're talking money then that would put you in the billionaire class now because of inflation. When he's talking 100 million back then, 100 million equated to, I mean, not quite being a billionaire, but it was a lot of money. A million dollars then was a whole hell of a lot different, you know. So he's throwing that number out. And then as they go by, they see the ⁓ high-rise buildings. You see that? That was my first real estate deal. Four, ⁓ I made eight hundred thousand dollars, better than sex. I thought that was all the money in the world. Now I make that in a day. That that's what he tells him. So when he makes a comment, yeah, my dad died of a heart attack doing hard work. What about it? You're either on the he said you're either on the inside or you're on the outside. And then that brings up that whole thing about the speech. Now that he finds out that, you know, Charlie Sheen, he's grown up. He busts into the meeting, Bud Fox, bucks into bust into Gordon Gecko's meeting because he happens to be over with his lawyer buddy and finds out that they're fire sailing Blue Star. And he goes, I'm sorry, sport didn't know we had a meeting today, Gecko. And he goes, ⁓ I didn't know about the fire sale at Blue Star. Hey guys, please get out. So he gets them all out. He sends them, he goes, What are you doing here? And he said, ⁓ blah, blah, blah. What what are you doing? And he said, you know, my son last night, ⁓ I had to read him about ⁓ Winnie the Pooh, you know, and sticking your nose in the jars. I mean, something about a fable, one of these childhood stories. And they go back and forth. Important point, he says, Don't be stupid and think we live in a democracy. We live in the k in the free market. And then the free market, he goes, I don't make anything. I speculate. Stocks, real estate, et cetera. And then he said, war, upheaval, the price of a paperclip. We just pick that out of a hat and everybody just sits in awe. Something I'm I'm I'm paraphrasing or trying to do the best I can remember the speech. But that all comes off of when Bud Fox says, What's enough? And it's like it's not a question of what's enough. Somebody wins, somebody loses. Then he does the 1%. of this population owns fifty percent of its wealth, X number of trillion dollars. And that is like I think he said one third hard work, one third ⁓ widows, and one third of idiot sons inheritance or something. And he just basically says that I'm in the business of shifting money to me. That's what I do. I don't produce anything. I mean, say that's what he's saying. And he goes, and I've taught you that. I've made you a part of that. He goes, come on, we'll we'll we'll go we'll go out this weekend with you and Daryl Hannah or whatever. And he has that long, come on, sport, I need to know that you're still with me. What he doesn't realize is he's gone. But that speech has been, that in the greed is good speech, has been used a lot by people who are anti liberty, I think. To kind of push the idea of collectivism. If we don't have the government to come in and collect and disperse the goodies to everybody equally, that guy's gonna exist. And I think that totally misses the point of the people who actually do produce things that makes other lives other people's lives better. This guy is just a crook. I don't I don't think that's a representation of free markets. I think it's a guy playing a system. Okay, I have gone the whole show and you have not fought back at all or said anything, or okay, okay. So some of the people say he's a psychopath, a narcissist for sure. Based upon what you saw, we're gonna wrap this up in an hour. So we got about eight minutes left. ⁓ what do you what do you see in his character or lack thereof?

Laura: De definitely narcissistic tendencies. I mean, he has no empathy for anybody, does does not care, is willing to do anything. And everybody is a tool.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. Yes. Well and what about though when he goes out walking with Daryl Hannah and he said, No doubt, but remember the scene when they're walking and he goes, Hey, what's going on there? ⁓ somebody looks like they got a little bit of a love bug or or what was or your love sick? And she goes, Yeah, Bud and I are really getting strong. He goes You haven't told him about us, have you? You haven't told him about us, right? Well, of course I haven't. I don't want you to either. Then he makes the comment, you know, love.

Laura: She's a tool too.

Moore To Consider: This thing that's sold to desperate people to keep them from jumping off of buildings or, you know, jumping into fire or whatever it was. And she goes, That's what I miss about you, Gordon. You're so twisted. So he makes a comment that to be in love and really devoted to someone is for saps. ⁓ and there's also the scene when when ⁓ when Bud Fox is trying to pitch the blue star thing, they're on that jet together. Well, what comes along? That tall brunette, you know, with the tight white skirt goes walking by and kind of gestures like, come on, Gordon, time to go. That's clearly not his wife. And that's right in front of everybody there. So if you were to ask the question, would Gecko be true to his wife? Hell no. No. Has he had a fling with Daryl Hannah? Absolutely. And he's

Laura: No, of course not. No.

Moore To Consider: This is a a major point that some of the people announced it too. He needed everything he could to entice, hook, however you want to claim this, Bud Fox. He sends the prostitute girl over. She knocks on the door or the escort, you know, whatever we're supposed to call that. Prostitutes a dirty word. Anyway, she knocks on the door and he goes, Can I help you? And she goes, Gordon didn't tell you? ⁓ that Gordon. Get your stuff on, let's go. And you know what happens in the back of the car. So that's like one of the perks. He goes, Many of the perks. You do right things by me, you're gonna get perks, lots of perks. And he basically hands him Daryl Hannah. Now Hannah has to be thinking in terms of this more solidifies me and my fan financial security. Cause if I tie to Bud and Gordon has put me in the situation with the high-end clients I have, then I'm only that much more solid in the game. So that I think is a true conflict.

Laura: Right.

Moore To Consider: In the end, when I think she does care, as much as she's able to, she cares about Bud Fox. But she cares about not b know, and and I saw in the comments and people made this, and that's why I didn't think that Daryl Hannah's performance was awful. She mentioned it well, that's a great line from the movie. He said, We'll make it blah, blah, blah. And she goes, Once you've been rich, it's a whole lot harder to ever be poor again. Remember that? Yeah, when they're fighting at the end. I think that's true. Probably.

Laura: I think it could work the other way too.

Moore To Consider: No, no. I mean, all right, well, okay. All right. ⁓ she said if you've ever had it, it's a whole lot harder to live without it, kind of thing. I think, I think that there are people that spend all of their time wanting to win the lottery and all that kind of stuff, and they're thinking, man, boy, one day if my ship came in, blah, blah, blah. And then clearly the ship comes in for some and they go, like, this isn't all I thought it would be. But I do think, because I've listened to people that lost fortunes.

Laura: Yes.

Moore To Consider: It's very tough to not have a care and then have a lot of care. But I also listened to a guy one time that was kind of an inspirational speaker and he made a lot of sense. He made his first million dollars when he was 29. 29. And this is back when a million dollars was 30 million today, that kind of money. And he bought a Royals Royce. So he had a Royals Royce. And he goes through bankruptcy. He makes a couple of bad investments. He loses everything. And he went to a friend and he said, Hey, Put your name on my Rolls Royce, because that's the first thing I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna make it right with you. I just don't want to lose this car. I've lost everything. And he said in 18 months he made another million back and then he started cooking again. And the reason he was sort of a speaker from a from a business finance standpoint, he goes, I knew how to make a million dollars. The reason most people never do is they can't imagine themselves being rich. Like they can't see it. I learned it early. I got rich following a formula. So when I made a mistake and lost it, I never questioned whether I could make it back. And I turned around and made it back in 18 months. And I went back and got my Rolls Royce and paid the guy and I threw him in a bonus for saving my car. And he was talking in a sense, goes, a lot of people are never wealthy because deep down they don't think they are wealthy. They're not of wealth. So they kind of repel wealth and they repel anything that will get them to a wealthier status. Cause they just don't think they deserve it or they're not quite sure. They think it's a status that they can't keep up with. And this guy was saying, even though I was dead broke after a couple of bad financial moves, I was like, okay, turn it back on, make another million, no no problem. Where most people can't see that. So with Daryl Hannah, what was she producing that was making her all this money?

Laura: An image? An ugly image?

Moore To Consider: Her a relationship to Gordon Gecko.

Laura: Well too, but but she was a art ⁓ interior decorator or something. Yeah, yeah. And I think she she was there to create the image of wealth. Like you this is what wealthy people look like. And did you see the apartment? The apartment was hideous. Yeah.

Moore To Consider: She was she was an interior design chick. That's did I say chick? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. I thought so too. But it was nineteen eighties kind of hideous, right? Yeah.

Laura: Still. I don't know that it would have ever been nice.

Moore To Consider: Well, it was gaudy and it was like you could as I I would imagine as an interior designer be really clean and and just make sure the colors match and the fabrics or you know the things, you know, it's like what you do when you dress. It's kinda like, does this run across, you know, do I wear that plaid with that stripe or w whatever? It's it's kind of that. Or you can go off the charts gaudy. And and but that seemed to be an eighties thing as well. That was kind of an eighties thing.

Laura: True. Yes.

Moore To Consider: And you have remember this movie is being made right in the middle of it. Now, I will say this ⁓ on the fashion side, one of the things this movie brought out was the ⁓ horizontal stripe shirts. That would that was like a new thing. Now, what and for everybody, these are braces, these are not suspenders. So explain that ⁓ for everybody. It was a time when and when you notice at the opening of the movie, it is a loopless pant. There there are no belt loops on them. It's all sus all braces at the time. So braces are buttons into the buttons on the pants into the buttons to hold them. It's not like some metal type of device that snaps on. So men were wearing braces. ⁓ got I, you know, and I still have these from years ago. I you saw me dress when I was practicing law twenty five years ago. I wanted everything accessory you could have. I never wore anything but French cuffs because cuff links to men are like earrings to women. So I have a million sets of cufflinks and all. But that's what I did. But that was the thing in the eighties. I thought the clothes the direction they were going, ⁓ the ties, you know, this was the three inch tie, which is still kind of standard. ⁓ People are wearing more narrow lapels again, more narrow ties, kind of the early 60s look. There was no better dress president ever than JFK. So if you go back and look at that early 60s, and then we go into this horrible. This is a thing. We went into this horrible, the worst fashion ⁓ time in our history was the 70s. So the guys are wearing the white shoes with the gr ⁓ with the gold buckles on them. ⁓ they're wearing the polyester plaid. suits and everything. And right about the time Reagan went in in 81, you started seeing male dress clean up again. And you s you know, but you go back and you look at you could look at Gable and you look at ⁓ Errol Flynn and you look at ⁓ you know Gary Cooper, the way men dressed in the 40s into the then the rad pack. Who dressed better? ⁓ my God, Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis, right?

Laura: They were pretty smooth.

Moore To Consider: ⁓ my God. I watched that 1965 Joey Bishop sitting in for Johnny Carson. Somebody put this up to say how much the society's changed. Sinatra and Dean Martin show up in black tucks. Cigarette lit, drink. They're lighting one cigarette off. And I was like, damn, it's Sinatra and Dean Martin. Now, Dean Martin, of course, is eat is drinking apple juice, as we always do with the drink. And he seemed like he was tipsy. But You know, and and Sammy Davis being in that group, and you know, and Joey Bishop was part of the rat pack, and then Peter Lawford, that was a different time, right? That though that was good the way Sinatra was good with the dress, the way those guys dressed in in the 50s and and the things they wore, the patterns they wore and the rest. So I think the 80s was kind of returned to that. Now, when the pleated pants are coming back. When the braces are coming back, when things are gonna I don't know. I dun I don't know if they play well today or not. I really don't. Cause men don't dress the same way they used to, but No, no, they don't. So do you think that's another aspect of this movie? Was there a gaudiness in dress?

Laura: North do women. I think it was a reflection of the time, so yes.

Moore To Consider: Right. I didn't think it was gaudy though. I just I you know, not for me, it it wasn't gaudy dress, it was high end dress. It was important that they be dressed high end. Yeah. ⁓ but you think about that too. If Gordon Gecko is Gordon Gecko today, is anybody in that environment wearing a suit?

Laura: Yes. Yes, yes. I don't know. No, I don't think so. Mm mm.

Moore To Consider: I don't think so. Not at all. Why would you wear a suit into a building? I mean, you're meeting people, you're having meetings, but nobody dresses that way anymore. Like everybody in there had a suit and tie. And again, they had accessories that were ⁓ higher end. It was a couple of times in the movie that I think that ⁓ Gordon Gecko didn't have on French cuffs. ⁓ but most of the time he did. It was good stuff. I'm just saying from a dress standpoint, the patterns they put together, the ties, the shirts.

Laura: Nobody.

Moore To Consider: It it w it was a good look. And do you know where he got his hairstyle from?

Laura: No.

Moore To Consider: It was Pat Riley, the coach of the Lakers. And I I I'll s I gotta I gotta say this. As a male of that era, looking at the 80s, nobody, and I mean nobody did it better than Pat Riley. Look up the pictures. Pat Riley played in the league. So you know, Pat Riley's like six four, so he's wearing the really nice suits, ⁓ when I'm thinking about not the tube. It was two buttons, three buttons was a sack suit, and then the double breasted. He would wear the double breasted suit and he just took the hair with the gel back then and went straight back. And they said literally Gecko was looking or Michael Douglas was looking for. Okay, what's the image going to be? I'm gonna take it and bring it straight back, and that's what I'm gonna go with because that was the Pat Riley look, and that was a look in the eighties. You were a young lady, not old enough to remember the eighties, but these were images of men that you found pleasing.

Laura: If you say so.

Moore To Consider: Right? Are you familiar with Pat Riley? Okay. So you're gonna look up Pat Riley. Okay. Pat Riley's coach of the Lakers when it's Magic Johnson and Jabbar and James Worthy and they're winning titles. When they're not winning, the Celtics are until Michael Jordan comes along. But yeah, that's that's the eighties. We we wore some hair gel too. I even did. That's where it all went.

Laura: No. Okay. Ha ha.

Moore To Consider: Okay. I'm going on and on here. ⁓ bottom line, for me, it's a great movie. It's a suspenseful movie for what you want to see in entertainment. ⁓ I think there's somewhat of a heroic act in the end with Charlie Sheen. I definitely think the movie is in large part Oliver Stone's shot at what his dad Lou probably went through. And so the Mannheim character ⁓ that Hal Holbrook played, that was supposed to be his dad. Like that's supposed to be representative of his dad. And I think that, yeah, and I think he also wanted some dad in the Martin Sheen character. You gotta admit, even though Charlie Sheen probably went down a road of saying dad was more of a bitch about the man collectivist kind of maybe, you know, he goes though, you know, workers of the world unite speed. I heard it I heard it all growing up, Dan. You weren't there for me when he does that whole bitch thing.

Laura: I could see that.

Moore To Consider: when they're outside the ⁓ apartment ⁓ after ever the the big fight. But then I think in the end he realizes his dad's a good guy, right? You still there? Okay. I said, in the end, don't you think he finds out or he more accepts that his dad was a good guy?

Laura: Absolutely. I don't think he ever lost that.

Moore To Consider: And I don't think, yeah, but you know what? There is the scene, again, when they're getting on the elevator and he goes, he's got you by the nuts or whatever he, how he really says it, and you're too stupid to understand it. He goes, No, I see a man that went out and made a claim and staked out something you never would do. So now in the end, he sees gecko for what he is. He like pitted gecko in his mind against his dad.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: And his dad's the noble one in the end. And he's like, son of a bitch, like I gotta make right on this. Because I literally threw at my dad his failures in my eyes, which were what? He wasn't that piece of shit, you know. So you've done this, and now your dad's his career and where he worked is even at stake, all because I sided with the wrong guy. So I think that's what fuels some of that emotion was that fight getting on and coming off the elevator.

Laura: True.

Moore To Consider: It's because those words that can't be taken back sometimes. He said some cutting things to his dad. And his dad said, Well, I never really measured a man by the size of his wallet. You know what I mean? He did that. Well, when he's doing that, he's like, son, this is what you become. You're running around and you're literally looking at people and the value thereof based upon how much money they have.

Laura: Right. Absolutely.

Moore To Consider: And now it all crashes down on him like that. So do we think in the end he's the best character in the movie? Martin Sheen. Daddy Fox. Yeah. I think Daddy Fox and Lou Manheim, I think are the the the two that we probably kind of like the most. And the receptionist, the the young lady that always greeted Bud Fox at the door at Jackson's Dynam. I loved her. She was so sweet.

Laura: The debt? Absolutely. I do. Yes. Yes, yes.

Moore To Consider: She was the one that had to break the news to him about the heart attack, and then she's the one crying when he's being cuffed and taken out. So she was definitely somebody that, you know, you had that kind of love for. She seemed like a sweetheart. And she thought that Bud was a good guy. Until he wasn't. Okay. Any closing remarks you would like to make since you've so dominated this conversation all time, you were you've just been nonstop. So what do what do you want to say on the way out about the movie?

Laura: Ha ha ha. I think it still still ⁓ is an issue today that people can relate to. You know, there's no shortage of greed.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. Do you think I don't even think this is a part of the society. I don't hear people talk the way they used to about potentially making it big. All I hear people talk about is survival. Or am I missing something?

Laura: ⁓ no. I think the conversations are really different. I think I think people use debt to create an image of wealth that didn't exist back then. And so that's why they're talking about survival. Because I don't think people are scrambling like that to make the big bucks, but they are using credit.

Moore To Consider: Well, we're you're much younger than I am, but I do think your ⁓ one A one coming out of college when I did forty years ago did see a world of I'll paint by the numbers and I'll probably be pretty comfortable. I d I do. I think that was it. And I don't remember us coming out, my peers, I don't remember coming out with the same kind of debt, not even close. And that's why I think a a lot of kids today

Laura: Right, yes.

Moore To Consider: are graduating at twenty two and they're a hundred and forty gr grand down and they're not getting married and then

Laura: Yes. Yes, I think the I think I think the baseline of what what I'm supposed to have is way higher than it used to be. People are entitled. They're gonna use credit to have that lifestyle. And so the mentality is totally different. It's it's similar, they still want it, but there's no ability to pay for it.

Moore To Consider: Mm-hmm. That's an interesting point. ⁓ you know, I do hear the numbers, higher percentage of kids living at home with their parents past a certain age is kind of like, wow, grow up. But they literally are in situations, I think, where it's much more difficult to go out on their own and make it. I don't know. I don't but I do know this. So many of them are carrying such a high percentage of debt coming out of college. And so I Again, I'm just in conversations. Again, I coach, I'm around younger people. We're not getting into conversations so much about, you know, what's their next option going to be as far as employment or something. Sometimes that does become conversations we have. They coach, I need your advice on whatever. What should I do? Should I go to this school? Should I major in this? We have those conversations. ⁓ but I do think coming out of college when I did, the idea of the prospects for. A good life and success were much greater. were much greater. I mean I asked my dad, I'll I'll never forget this, I asked him like, what were you making as sheriff in my home county in nineteen eighty? What do you think he was making as sheriff? Fifteen grand.

Laura: No idea. ⁓ my God.

Moore To Consider: And then when Reagan went out in 89, January of 89, my dad retired in 1991. And I said, What were you making at the end of the 80s? And he said, 47.5. So he went from 15 to 47. And I looked, it beat inflation. The rate of inflation over that time in real dollars, he prospered a great deal. He was in a job, he was being paid a salary. People can argue one way or the other. I mean, the sheriff at my home county now probably makes 175 grand a year. You know, it's it's that's how much. But I'm saying it was interesting in that time frame from 1980 to 1990, he went from 15 to 47 and with the rate of inflation, had a pretty big bump in constant dollars and increase in salary. So he looked at the 80s as being a pretty good time, as I did. And so I'm saying if you were coming out of college like I was in the 80s, you're kind of like, hey, there's a lot of chance out here. Things are gonna be good, country's looking up, you know.

Laura: Yeah.

Moore To Consider: The the Soviet Union's falling, hey, we beat kind of all that stuff seemed positive. I don't see how kids come out today and see the world as positive. That's all I'm saying. I just right. And I think that that's what I meant by I think they see, I don't dis disagree with you that they think there are things they have to have, and they'll just go out there and run the credit card up to get them. But I think that they don't see prospects of long-term wealth and and buying houses, getting married, and having 2.5 kids.

Laura: They don't.

Moore To Consider: I just don't think some of that might be I listened too too much to commentators say that, but I think there's some truth in that. I think it's it's gotta be much harder to be a nineteen, twenty, twenty one year old today than it was when we were coming along. By a lot. Okay. Last thoughts on the movie, how we changed society, whatever. Last thoughts on the movie. You don't have any thoughts on the movie?

Laura: For sure. I don't have any. Don't have any you said at all.

Moore To Consider: I know I I I I can't ⁓ God, that's what that's what I feel like. Yeah, I said it all in trying to get maybe some more thoughts from you, but I don't know. ⁓ okay. ⁓ overall though, what would you give the movie one to ten from an entertainment standpoint?

Laura: ⁓ I thought it was thought provoking. I thought the relationship angle was good. It is dated. because we just don't have that the I mean, the whole thing about the stock market and how we make money is is a bit different. ⁓ so I'm gonna give it a seven because of the dated. Back in the day I would have given it higher. Today I give it a seven.

Moore To Consider: Yeah, I I I I I kind of agree with you on that. How dated it is as you get older becomes more and more you look back at it. I mean, I don't look at it like because it wasn't made as a silent movie in 1919, you know, or something where it's like people just kind of moving around like robots with no sound. It's clear. I mean, I watched it in HD when I watched some of the clips and I'm like, yeah, I remember what it looked like. I remember I I remember what so much of that looked like in time, but you understand the circumstances have changed. The world's changed in some kind of ways.

Laura: think the relationships are good. I think that still exists, but not the same dynamics, financial dynamics, which is what it's all about. It's Roll Wall Street.

Moore To Consider: I wonder how many people though work in environments like that still where you go to the hospital and Martin Sheen has had the heart attack. Who's at the door? All those guys that worked with him. Remember? They're all at the door. Like, hey, buddy's gonna be fine. Your dad, your dad's a rock. He'll be well, those are the same guys, you know. Now that that might have just been the movie, but I remember situations like that when people work together and the first people you'd see on the scene would be the people they work with.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Moore To Consider: I don't know that it's that much anymore. I don't know. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I don't think it is either. And that that's an that's another thing I think that was clearly illustrated as Martin Sheen, the good guy in it. Look at the loyalty of the people that he worked with. And the way he talked about him as he's chain smoking cigarettes and drinking the beers in that first scene. I you know, I'm the union guy and I gotta look out for my guys, I gotta look out for my people. He felt a responsibility to the people he worked with and he had a fear of the man.

Laura: I don't think so. No.

Moore To Consider: When he crumples up the paper with ⁓ with with Michael Douglas or with Gordon Gecko, he goes, This has been going on since the beginning of the time. Or he he makes the kind, he goes, What is that, a prophecy? Or he goes, No, it's just the truth that the the the people with money have screwed the lesser guy since the beginning of time. I know what this guy is, he's a con artist, he's an in and out artist, he's getting ready to screw you. You know, and he didn't want to hear it. So in a movie, I can make anybody prophetic, I can make them tough, I can make them whatever, but he does come across as being that guy. And he certainly comes across as a guy that if you were part of that crew you would want to work with. He he looked out for you. I think that still exists. Maybe not to the same degree. Maybe I don't think the dynamics exist as much. All right. Last thought.

Laura: Yes. Yes. Is yours.

Moore To Consider: I just enjoy having you on here. I wish you would argue with me about something or tell me I'm full of shit or something, but ⁓

Laura: Well, we agree on a lot, so it's kinda hard.

Moore To Consider: Okay. Total number of narcissists in the movie?

Laura: All of them except one.

Moore To Consider: too. You got Charlie you got Martin Sheen being okay and Lou Manheim being okay. Yeah, yeah. I think right? ⁓ and the girl, the receptionist that I'm in love with. The receptionist at the front, she's good too. She's a nice girl.

Laura: Two? Dad and who else? Yes, two, two. think the the lawyer friend wasn't a narcissist either. He was just misled.

Moore To Consider: ⁓ you know what? He's that's a great point now that you bring that up. He's another version of Charlie Sheen in the sense that, yeah, Spader was put in the situation because remember, he's like, hey, what's going on with that deal? He goes, Come on, buddy. Hey, college buddy. He throws the pin on the table ⁓ he was like, You know, I could get me disbarred But it's just couple friends talking. Well, yeah, what do you got here? Just a couple of friends. He's like, Come on, you know, buddy, you know I can't say that.

Laura: Mm. Yes. Spader, yeah.

Moore To Consider: Then you can and then eventually it's like, what about me and this law? You know, like, what can I gain from this? Can I pay off the house and the wife and I go to the, you know, ⁓ fly the fly the world for a while? It starts to dawn on him, like, yeah, my friend's doing shady things, but I am his friend and maybe I have an in. So he's tempted. And then in in being tempted, he ends up crossing that line as well. He's not seeking it, but he sure steps on it. But he is the one though at the end that's like. Hey, we've gone too far with this. You got to stop coming by. We're not going to have any more lunches. Now, he's doing that out of fear of being in trouble. And it and it it might be a certain amount. Well, it's self-preservation. What got him into the trouble was his eyes got big. I got a chance to make money probably in a fashion I shouldn't, but I'm good with it until I want good with it because it's getting to be too dangerous. So he's not exactly a virtuous character in there at all, I don't think.

Laura: I don't think he's a bad guy though. He's not looking for it. He's not looking for it.

Moore To Consider: No, I don't either. No, certain certainly minus he shows up one day and like, hey, buddy from college, you want to talk about things that we shouldn't do together. It never happens. That's fair. As a matter of fact, it's even a part of that when he comes in, it's like, Bud, what are you doing here? You're not the kind of old friend from college. ⁓ well, you have utility now. You're a lawyer in a firm that handles a bunch of stuff that we'd like to snoop around in. Now all of a sudden it's important that I meet up with you. Like you could tell there's a little bit of where have you been? The last 10 years, or not 10 years, five years. Yeah, I don't ever see you anymore. Why now? ⁓ maybe I can make you richer than you can ever imagine. Who doesn't fall for that? All right. Wall Street on the way out. Laura will give all the things we're supposed to say on the way out. Like.

Laura: Yeah. ⁓ you wanna like, share, and subscribe to more to consider so you don't miss the next fabulous episode.

Moore To Consider: And comment and you will and you will read the comments that I won't. Right. Okay. And then we got to figure out the next movie we're going to do. And I tell you what we're going to do. The next movie we're going to do, I'm not doing. I'm going to watch it, do no research, and you're running it. You are just like, you're unloading everything you got. Can do you have a thought right now at what movie that's going to be?

Laura: And comments. Okay. I don't. I don't.

Moore To Consider: I was thinking the other day of one that that I think we oughta do. But okay. You're you're gonna you're gonna pick the movie, you're gonna run the show, and I'm gonna react to you. That's gonna be it. More to consider. Please like, subscribe, comment, bye.

Laura: Okay.

Moore To Consider: Bye. Or just bye.