Football Helmet Collector Breaks Down 100 Years of Gridiron History

Jack Moore: Welcome to another edition of More to Consider. Please like and subscribe. Today I have a gentleman on, Mike Gross. We are crazy NFL helmet guys. And we're going to get into his background. I'm going to tell you mine. Okay, I got my Sonny 74, you know, the Michelin Ness throwback jersey on today. You know, Sonny passed away this year and did a whole show about the history of loving Sonny Jorgensen as a kid growing up. First game, DC Stadium, 1968. It's not even RFK yet. They had not named it yet. Bobby Kennedy shot June of 68. They named the stadion January 69, RFK Stadium. I'm at the first home game against the Cardinals in 69. So I'm obsessed. And in 2020, I had two helmets. I had a throwback helmet in the plum color, up top, the one you see up top. And I had one from the 80s. Actually, it's it's right back here because I'm redoing some stuff on it. But I buy this at a sporting goods store in '88. The guy that I buy it from at the sporting good son, you don't want to spend that kind of money. I'm like, yeah, I gotta have a helmet. So I have these two helmets. And then they drop the Redskins name. And I'm devastated. And then I'm like, man, I didn't get helmets here and there, and I should have. So I'm afraid they're gonna generally pull the whole name from history. I I don't know what's gonna happen. So I start to scramble to buy as much Redskin memorabilia as I can get my hands on. And in doing so, I met a bunch of really neat people. It's it's kind of it's a web. And the gentleman I have on with me, Mike, will tell you, you meet a person, you meet a per hey, do you know Tim and Bill and Jim? yeah, yeah, yeah. We we everybody knows everybody. we have various backgrounds. Mike, how are you, sir? So so happy to have you on. How are you today?

Michael Gross: Great, great. my pleasure to be on. I've I've been looking forward to this for a couple of weeks now since we we first talked.

Jack Moore: So how did you get looking behind you, you have this amazing collection of helmets. How did you get started in this?

Michael Gross: so growing up you know multi sport, played baseball, played football. as my boys grew up and started to play football, I got more involved in in coaching. And one thing led to another, and I was doing coaching clinics for the Chicago Bears. youth coaching, high school coaches, right, would would attend. And I and I met a gentleman that brought me on to to do a a a specific clinic with the Bears and it was the Bears coaching staff. At the time I may have had like one or two helmets laying around the house and what have you, but in in the process of of joining this this group, it was the National Football Foundation, Chicago Metro chapter. We got to meet Gail Sayers. And I I like you, like authenticity and like, you know, hey, what so I I did some research on like, well, what did Gail wear at the time? 'Cause I'm gonna get to meet him. So

Jack Moore: Let me guess, was it Wilson? Was he wearing a Wilson? Okay.

Michael Gross: he he was, he was. yeah. so you know, long story short, you know, I I wanted to get something that that he would sign and I could

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: keep, right? So that started it. I had a friend who knew Brian Erlocher and

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: knew what I was doing and all of a sudden one day I've got a Brian Urlacher sign helmet. That again leads to me working, I get out of the insurance industry and and have a a relationship with somebody at the bears and I send them my resume and they say, Hey, I you know I'm interested in in in working do you know with the league, with the Bears. Do do does my resume have any merit whatsoever? And unbeknownst to me. She sent it on to a gentleman who owned a subsidiary, a back engine management company, if you will, that ran youth football camps for about eight or nine NFL teams at the time I started, which then became 13 before I left. I created some really, really cool relationships as you've done over the years. one of the gentlemen that worked with the Bears was in the cotton bowl with Joe Montana. And I was I was telling

Jack Moore: Wow.

Michael Gross: them about what I really wanted to do and and how I was, you know, starting to collect helmets and and he's like, Well, you know, I'm doing a clinic with them in Italy. True story. I'm doing a clinic with him in Italy. get me the helmet. I'll bring it to Italy and get it signed for you. And, you know, I stripped it down so it was bare bones. So he didn't have to carry it. You know, I took the mask off. I took all the pads out, everything.

Jack Moore: Right, right.

Michael Gross: and and and you know, sure as as he said, he comes home, you know, signed helmet from Joe, Montana. and then my nephew. it was his actual wedding reception, backyard deal. And he's like, You know, Unc, I got somebody you need to meet. And so I go, you know, we start talking, he's like, you know, my uncle's a really big football guy, he coaches, you know, played a little bit. And and this guy, and to this day I I never other than that particular day, you know, never met him again. But had correspondence with him email, text and what have you. But what I saw pictures of his basement and his thing

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: was he would replicate the helmets that the Hall of Fame inductees would wear. And you know, according to him, he had some that were actually in the Hall of Fame. When a player who played in many years ago couldn't you know, produced a helmet, he would he would build one and and get it.

Jack Moore: So you you mentioned the thing about the reason I mentioned something about Gail Sayers and the Wilson helmet. I've done a little bit of the history of what teams wore what, and pretty much Riddell was ninety percent in the league at a certain point. John Riddell, he sort of invented the six point suspension helmet, and it was actually it modified the military helmet,

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: the nineteen eighteen helmet that was worn during World

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: War One. Patton sees the football helmet, I believe it was Patton, it was one of the major generals, not major rank general, but a general in the army, and he saw it and it was like We gotta do that for the battlefield helmet, and then eventually they they fitted it into it. I think it I don't know if it became the M1941 or something like that, but during World War

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: II, Riddell's design. So Reddell has taken it from they went from leather, they went from these different types of helmets in their history to actually put in some kind of suspension inside leather, then eventually in plastic. But as you know, Riddell's the guy, but Hallis had like family kinship with Will. Wilson Sporting Goods. And the

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: other team that I know of that really ran a particular helmet other than Riddell was the Cardinals wore Rawlings. Because I think Rawlings headquarters in St. Louis. But everybody

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: else pretty much, so guys that wore something outside of those of Riddell had some connection for whatever reason. Peyton wore Walter Payton, he wore he wore Wilson, he wore Wilson.

Michael Gross: BLEH

Jack Moore: Kenny Stabler wore Wilson. He he wore Wilson at one point.

Michael Gross: And I have built both of those, you know?

Jack Moore: Yep. Now, what was it? I was gonna say Bradshaw. Bradshaw was like Max Pro or something like that, right?

Michael Gross: So, yeah, so in my collection above me here, when I got to Terry Bradshaw, you know, the decisions that we made, my two sons helping me build this collection, decided that we would have to kind of draw the line. And if we were going to get them autographed, we weren't going to build, you know, two helmets for the same team if they wore a different type of helmet. So we were on the prowl for both the Max Pro that Bradshaw wore or the Rawlings Ridge helmet.

Jack Moore: D he did wear right, exactly. He wore that too, yes.

Michael Gross: One year, one year he wore each of those, right? And the funny story on the Rawlings Ridge is I'm actually on family vacation in Xtapa and I'm reading a helmet blog and the guy says that he had just bought two at a garage sale, two Rawlings Ridge helmets at a garage sale. What are they worth? And I'm immediately responding to it going, hey, I'm very interested. Can you reach out to me? Here's my phone number. Timing is everything, I guess. He was reading it as I was writing. He calls me while I'm in Mexico. And he's like, I paid five bucks for each of them. And I

Jack Moore: Ha ha.

Michael Gross: go, I'm going to be very upfront with you. They're probably worth way more than the $5 you paid. I'm interested in building a Terry Bradshaw. I said, what size is it? It's exactly what Bradshaw wore size-wise. I'm like, I'll give you 300 bucks. And he's like, done deal. By the time I got home from vacation, it was sitting at my house, but it was red. and it was beat up and the interior was all, you know, dirty and everything. Nothing that couldn't be cleaned with a little, you know, elbow grease. So did that and actually, you know, sent it away, had it painted. And there's actually an online picture of an original. Rawlings Ridge Terry Bradshaw helmet that if you put mine next to it looks identical

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: The gold are on the back to to you know, the the size and everything else But yeah to your point That that's pretty cool, right? The Rawlings Ridge and then Dan Randy white Dallas Cowboys same era the Cowboys were big into the Max Pros in that same

Jack Moore: Stall back.

Michael Gross: 77. Staubach had it,

Jack Moore: Yep.

Michael Gross: but in Super Bowl XII where you had the two co-MVPs, Randy White and Harvey Martin, Randy White wore the Max Pro.

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: And I was, again, very fortunate to be able to find one. that was a Cowboy Max Pro that I didn't have to build because that's such

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: a unique situation in which the helmet is painted on the inside of the helmet. It's just crazy, but to your point, yeah, there are several of those throughout the years, the early years in which, like you said, Rawlings was big, Wilson, obviously really big. you know, the unique Max for I don't think that was long lived in the NFL anyway.

Jack Moore: Well, you know, th this is a bit of you know, puts you on the spot, but in nineteen eighty two when the Washington Redskins they w I think they were tired of the the decal issues with the hanging feather. So they did the tuck feather and then they decided, nope, we're gonna go back to the original. So they played one season and they won the Super Bowl. There was one player for the Redskins that had a hanging feather, not a tuck feather. Do you know who it was?

Michael Gross: I believe he uses the defensive back. Washington, okay.

Jack Moore: No, actually it was Joe Washington. And and this is and this is why Joe Washington wore a Kelly. So Kelly

Michael Gross: Okay.

Jack Moore: was another one of those. So for folks listening, if you wore McGregor helmet was like this too, because I remember we had them in high school, they would take a clear shell and run a basically like a reverse decal into the helmet. So it's pressed up against the clear and then spray paint the inside or paint, or however they coated the inside with paint. So then the look was clear glossy over the decal, and then it reflected the team color. So Washington had. His helmet. He had his helmet that was already fixed to go for the 82 season. They flipped in the with with this tucked feather. So now they're like, Well, we're not gonna send the Kelly back in and change this. So he just played with it. So when you watch the film, he's running around, number 20, running back. He was kind of the b the back out of the out of the out of the backfield that caught passes when Riggins did all the running, all the grunt work. And so a particular person we know. Has a helmet that Kelly eventually put together with the Tuck Feather for the 83 season, and then they didn't wear it. So then they didn't go to it.

Michael Gross: Ha ha ha ha!

Jack Moore: So there was a Kelly produced with the Tuck Feather a year too late, and then Washington went back to the hanging one. But yeah, that was kind of a neat look, but it was big in college, like Oklahoma wore it. You there's a lot of these teams in that college era that wore those. It was a heavy like white leather covered padding, but they were again a decal pressed inside of a clear shell with paint and then then it it gave the look of it being very glossy over the top, but

Michael Gross: you.

Jack Moore: I mean, you could throw a decal over top of it. And I think sometimes they did. I think some teams would spray paint over top of the clear shell in a pinch and just throw it. And I think they could have done that with Washington. If it meant that much to him, they could have just painted the helmet, thrown a decal over. He still would have been wearing. But now they may have had some kind of a agreement. Kelly might have had a thing where no, no, no. You don't change the

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Kelly look. This is what we are. We're a clear shell. But

Michael Gross: Ironically, I've had, you know, some of the folks, like you said, that we have in common in helmet collecting, story in which, you know, garage sale or flea market

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: gets a helmet and gets it home. And there's a chip in the paint. And the next thing you know, he's peeling it back. And that's exactly what it was, was underneath it was a clear shelled and the underneath paint was fully intact. They painted over it and put a decal

Jack Moore: Right. Yep.

Michael Gross: over it somewhere down the line.

Jack Moore: And and to the listeners too, again, we're not mentioning names. We're not kissing and telling or dropping any names, but I know what you mean about like when you said the thing about the work on like the Bradshaw helmet. and I'm sure that we're probably talking about the same same source of ple you know, of or greatness that we get from from fixing the helmets. I had an obsession with Jay Schrader. I know it's not popular. Doug Williams wins the Super Bowl. They trade him on we get Lachey, we Jim Lachey, which was a huge pick or a pick up because we go on to put him at left tackle and win another Super Bowl. But I was a big Schrader fan. And because of the weirdness of all the people we run with, I'm trying to do a build-up of a Schrader. I'm trying and trying it. And I'm like, what is he wearing? And I got people looking. It's like the Pruder film analysis. You know, they're like, well there there's a there's a rivet here or they're there. You know, and I know it's not an old suspension helmet, but you can see the little tiny plastic rivets inside. And then finally

Michael Gross: Sure.

Jack Moore: he's against the Eagles eighty-six and he goes to the sideline after a touchdown. And I'm watching it on YouTube. And he there were so many times I think he's gonna show the interior, then he puts it the other way. You know, I'm I'm watching it. So finally I'm looking, I'm like, son of a gun, stop right there. And I did some freeze frames. And I see this big donut in the top, and I see a certain pattern of the padding, and I start asking around, and I get a guy that runs with us. And he said, I know exactly that's an ace one. They they made them from like eighty-three to eighty-six. They're very rare, blah, blah, blah. He goes, but the Redskins were pretty big on them. I say, okay. He goes, I got one. And I got one, and it's from another team in the NFL. Game Warn. I have no idea who this guy was. And because I don't care who he was, it's like 400 bucks. I'll let you have it for 400 bucks. So I get it. It's got it's got this team's logos and decals on it. I strip that and I send it off to our friend. And it's if for people that are listening, it's like a body shop. So he's gonna put a little filler in here and there, sand it down, you know, clean it

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: up. And I've shown people pictures. This is what I got in the mail. This is the helmet. They're like, no way. And I'm yep, that's the helmet. So after this person has completely sandblasted, cleaned it up, filled it, whatever, sanded it down and painted it, you would think it was right off. So it is pristine, perfect, like out of the box Reddell. Now with

Michael Gross: Sure.

Jack Moore: the padding. takes it out, takes all of it out and doing the process of the shell, cleans it up, sanitizes it, whatever. When they throw it back together, you would swear it's a brand new helmet. And

Michael Gross: Absolutely.

Jack Moore: well, even one that I got was I wanted a Thysman and he wore a TAC twenty nine. So for the people listening, that was like a suspension with a little bit of the newer type of air pads in the back near the neck. So I find one, a guy in Pennsylvania. What do you want? Tells me. It comes in, it's a high school beat up Tac twenty nine. It's beat to hell. It's it's black. Send it off, cleaned up, red skinned burgundy, you would never have known that helmet wasn't brand new off the assembly line. You would have thought it was brand new. So again, I've shown people

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: pictures like there's no way that helmet is that helmet, yeah. It is that that's actually the word. And you think about it, once you get the shell right, now you're just throwing decals on it. And if you mask it up correctly, you put the right chin strap on, and you put the right decals, no one would ever know. The only thing that you really kind of suffer with sometimes from being perfect. looking new is whatever interior padd have and maybe the sweatband might not be a it might make me get a little jacked up. But but

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: otherwise you can pretty much recreate.

Michael Gross: And I've done them both ways, Jack, because I do like kind of that weathered, beaten look a little bit.

Jack Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Gross: If it's not too bad, right? If it's not too bad. On some of them I have, you know, especially, you know, I've done a Walter Payton

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: just because, you know, I'm originally a Chicago guy. iconic running back. actually got to meet Walter a couple of times in my life. and I've got up here to my right, out of view, his entire career in football cards. And when he was going into the hall of fame, he went to, or he actually owned 34s, which was a, a bar restaurant, in Schomburg. So, I had him sign the mats. the matting around all the cards and everything. But as I progressed and was doing the Super Bowl MVPs, it kind of stemmed off a little bit like, what other iconic players had really unique helmets, right?

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: So Walter Payton being one of them, like you said earlier in the show, and Kenny Stabler, again, another very unique one.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: And recently, here locally in the Knoxville area where I live, Earl Campbell was coming to town. So I actually was able to get my hands on a Rawlings noodle. It looks like mostachole noodles on the inside of the helmet

Jack Moore: Yep. Yeah.

Michael Gross: that I had him sign. Again, just an iconic player, right? Never won a Super Bowl, but a legend running back.

Jack Moore: Yeah, but he was he was special. He was sp holy cow, he was special. He was a different kind of cat. Campbell was

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: you gotta go back folks and gotta watch the film, which is somewhere I wanna kinda take this, because you and I are about of the same age. And I run into this stuff all the time. And everyone listening has heard this a million times. But I just I c I keep saying it. I'm a college baseball coach. I still coach college baseball today. And I'm on a bus about 15 years ago with a group of guys, or we're on vans. And we get into this general discussion. I'm like, guys, you know, professional sports peaked in the 80s. And they're like, Coach, I don't I don't know if those guys could play today. And I'm like, You don't think Lawrence Taylor could play today? No, I'm sitting about five miles from his high school. Like, he's a Virginia guy. And and secretary, of course, behind me the greatest athlete in Virginia history. But anyway. I I bring out L T and it goes round and round and they're talking about this guy, that guy, vertical leaps, for and I said, Guys, I I l well I finally I kind of ended the discussion. I said, Okay, who's your Bo Jackson? Give me your Bo Jackson, tell me your era's Bo Jackson. And then they shut up because they're like pulling up film like, my god, and I'm like, Yeah, that's Bo Jackson. He was pretty unique, but I said, Christian Okoye, go back and watch him a little bit. Go back and see some of the body types that I said, these guys weren't like five eleven and a hundred and eighty pounds. And I told him, I said, Jim Brown would have played in any era. And I'm like, what do you think, Jim Brown? I said, what do you think he was size? They're what is he probably like six feet, two hundred? I'm like, no, he was six two, two thirty-five. And they're like, he was that big playing in that era. And I'm yeah, Jim Brown could have played any time. And the movie, any given Sunday, I thought was interesting because in 2013, you probably saw this, NFL Network

Michael Gross: you

Jack Moore: did top 100 players of all time. So they had Jerry Rice one,

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: they had Jim Brown two, they had Lawrence Taylor three. So you're in that movie with Lawrence Taylor playing this aging linebacker, and his coach is Jim Brown. So two and three are in the shots together. And then Johnny United's number six on the all-time list is in it as a coach for another team. So they really nailed some guys from that era or from that top 100. But I throw that out to say something I want to ask you about helmets. And now Rush Limbaugh has been passed for what, four years, five years? But he made an interesting point. I really did think when they really started pushing, because he was a big sports fan, he's doing a show 15, 18 years ago, and it's about all the concussion stuff. A lot of stuff's coming out about the history of concussions, and he said, And I found it interesting because I think there's a

Michael Gross: Good.

Jack Moore: lot of there's there's a lot to back this. And I played high school football. I'm sure you played football. I was in

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: that era when we were going from suspension into the air type of helmets. And I had one of those micro fits in high school when they were really were starting to come out. And I felt totally invincible because you didn't feel anything. So Limbaugh made the point. I think the players were safer with suspension helmets because if you ever played with one on, and that's what I have up here, it's canvas wetting webbing and a little bit of stretchy material with a rubber cap, you didn't lead with your head. There's no way you would have played with your head because you would have known what would come and I saw a study of this new like full contact flag football that they're playing without helmets. Nobody gets a concussion. Rugby guys tend to not

Michael Gross: Right.

Jack Moore: get concussions. Australian rules football guys didn't get concussions. And the concussion comes from the brain movement inside the skull, coming from the shock waves that are created with contact and impact. And I think as these helmets evolved into the weapons they became in the 80s and 90s, that's where these guys started to get the head injuries more. You know the whole Mike Webster story. That was the movie that came out about. And if you go back and look, Webster played with his forehead against everybody. He would take that helmet off and you could see

Michael Gross: Absolutely.

Jack Moore: the indention of his padding across his across his scalp or a across his forehead. So I want to ask you that. Do you think and no no now they're trying a new technology, but I think they've technology themselves into helmets that people thought were so safe it led to the head injuries. And I almost wonder if they went back to suspension helmets if the game wouldn't be safer. What's your take on all that with the helmet safety?

Michael Gross: So it's funny that you bring that up. this next segment that I'm going to go into, I don't believe you knew about me, but I was actually a master trainer for USA football for eight years,

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: in which spoke around the country about concussion protocol and concussions

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: and all these things. And one of the doctors, and I'm going to get to the helmet part. but the doctor made

Jack Moore: Right, right.

Michael Gross: perfect example of knee injuries during Gail Sayers time and the same knee injury happening to Adrian Peterson and Adrian Peterson being back on the field in eight months,

Jack Moore: Yes.

Michael Gross: how far we've come. And this is probably, I'm gonna go back to 2010, 2011-ish. So, you know, 15

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: years ago, and the doctor who was speaking in front of this, the class of master trainers said, you know, first of all, know, concussions have obviously been around for a long time, but we're really now just getting to understand them, just like we started to understand, you know, the knee.

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: with the technology and the money available by pro sports like the NFL and everything to do the research, it has evolved. And to your point, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And if I recall right before his passing, And I can't believe his name is eluding me, but you're going to know. Penn State's old coach, head coach,

Jack Moore: Peterno?

Michael Gross: Joe Paterno, right before he passed away said,

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: you want to eliminate concussions, take the face masks off the helmet again. It goes along to the same premise that

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: you were talking about by putting suspension helmets back on, right? You're not

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: going to lead with your head if you have no protection here.

Jack Moore: Exactly.

Michael Gross: It's a combination of the face masks and the helmets. to your, again, to the other point, yeah, my first high school helmet was actually a Gladiator, the water-filled

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: helmet, which I felt was incredible, right? I mean,

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: it was like so soft and cushiony and

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: not afraid to... lead with your head, so to speak. And at the time it was, you you rolled over to the sideline, you got over there, some smelling salts and you're good to go. Okay, I feel

Jack Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Gross: great. But, know, I actually...

Jack Moore: Well we didn't know what we didn't know 'cause I was gonna say we didn't know

Michael Gross: You're right.

Jack Moore: what we didn't know 'cause I remember in high school, you know, fast forward I graduated in nineteen eighty and it was it was fall of seventy nine and one of my buddies, that played, it was right out of the movies and I saw it. He's on the sideline and they're like, What day is it? tomorrow? Like I mean it was that. Like, you know, from the you know, and it's it's sad because he was out. He was real he was out and he bring him to the sideline. What's your name? Name me anything you want. I mean, it was his responses. And I remember it just I mean, I was standing I still remember the angle I was looking at him, and I'm watching him not know anything about himself. You know, and there's a famous story that Steinberg, the the the sports agent said it it was really a lot of what the Tom Cruise and Cuba Gooding Junior movie, you know, The Show Me the Money, what was the movie? the sports agent movie anyway, the the one with Tom Cruise. That was in large

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: part based upon Steinberg. And remember Steinberg and Troy Aikman showed up in the film that did the cameo at the end. And I can't believe I can't think of the name of the movie. But but anyway, I heard Steinberg tell a story and he was emotional. He said Troy was in a championship game that the Cowboys went on to the Super Bowl and he got knocked out in like the third quarter. And he goes, And I go rushing down from my sweet seat, you know, where I'm at, and I go down the tunnel and I go down to The players thing. And he goes, he's out. And after the game, I'm talking to him, I'm looking right in his eyes, and I Troy, how you doing? He goes, Did I play today? Yeah, you played the first three quarters. He was like, Do we win? He didn't know anything. And he goes, and that's when I looked at him and went, my god, he he's in trouble. And of course.

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: I don't know. He had a career. I think he's out by about two thousand 'cause it was a hit from LeVar Arrington of the Redskins that pretty much ended it for him. So I think he played twelve years, thirteen maybe. He wasn't a twenty year career or an eighteen year career. And I know he had a lot of cumulative damage or I think he had a lot of head injury. And Again, we're talking about different eras. I'm not so sure because I mentioned, you know, with what happened with me in the microfit helmet, the big blocks with the big donut in the top with the air. My best friend's

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: equipment manager. So I'm in the room one day, I'm like, hey, buddy, what's that? And he goes, that's that big time Redell helmet. Nobody wear limit let Jack wear it. Let me have it. So I put it on and he pumps up the padding. And dude, it was like, you know,

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: it's like a huge pillow on your head. And it's got a little bit

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: of antifreeze in there or whatever for cold weather. And and I'm like putting it on. So I started taking it out to practice. And I don't feel anything. I you know, and it wasn't like I'm some big hitter or something like that, but I'm saying you start to get convinced, I'll go stick my head in there. What's gonna happen? I feel like I got a big pillow on my head. I'm good. But yeah, I do think, and I do think the time that we probably reached the zenith of the crazy hits. Like y you see this again when I'm doing the old man get off my lawn, the eighties were better. Man, I'll watch some of these highlight films. I'm like, k Ronnie Lott can't play today. Now, Sean Taylor, I got up here and I've talked about it. Sean Taylor's the greatest football player I ever saw. I know L T and Reggie White are the Mount Rushmore of defensive players, along with Ronnie Lott. And Dick Butkis. I realized that, but I never saw anyone like Sean Taylor. I'm not even close. Speed, power, biggest linebacker, I mean biggest safety, linebacker tie safety you're gonna see. And he destroyed people. And some of the hits that were made, I don't know that he could play. I know that guys would clean their games up, but man, brother, you go back and look at Ronnie Lott. Ronnie Lott lit people up. I mean it was just different. And it was two steps after the incompletion, then boom, he hits the guy. The game was just so different then. You know, it's just it was and I think it was a better

Michael Gross: we're not in time.

Jack Moore: game. I think it was a better game for the fan, but where it started to get ridiculous, and I remember as a Redskin fan, it was still the Redskin name. It was Kirk Cousins. I wanna say it was twenty sixteen-ish, and I wanna say we played the Packers. And the Matthews kid that was the pass rushing defensive and outstand up linebacker, whatever you want call it. I guess

Michael Gross: play.

Jack Moore: it's Clay's son. What was it? Yeah. Is it Clay Jr.? Anyway, good pass rusher, blonde-haired kid, long blonde hair. He it's like Cousins throws ball, like throws ball incomplete. He he airmails it down the field somewhere and in a s in an a split second, Matthews raises his hand and bumps him. Flags and flags come in from everywhere. Fifteen yards, rough in the past. And I'm a skins fan. I'm like, that's bullshit. I'm like, I'm sorry. And they did it like twice to him. So they've gone so extreme on this protecting quarterback thing. And again, you remember from the eighties for fans that don't know. That was ball thrown, one step, two step, destroy. That whatever. Whatever. Pick

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: yourself up and play. And and so that's why, well let me ask you this.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: It's two bet who do you think is the greatest quarterback of all time? There's no wrong answer, but what do you think?

Michael Gross: Well, I mean, I do think Brady is, but I'm gonna, I

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: will say but. You know, the points you just made, right? mean, earlier in his career, I mean, the one, you know, hitting below the knee, that rule is the Brady rule, right? After Brady's knee got blown out, the Hanna-Colbert changed that rule.

Jack Moore: Yeah. Two thousand eight. Yeah, after after the perfect season. Yep.

Michael Gross: But I grew up in the 80s, 70s, 80s like you, the hard hits, Joan Amos, mean, Joan Amos used to just get hammered after the ball was gone.

Jack Moore: I lo I loved him though. I d I love Namath. I saw Namath live and he had a huge arm. He had a huge arm. For anybody that's not telling you guys he could throw the ball at the stadium. That was a b it was a big arm. He was talented.

Michael Gross: But I would take Roger Staubach all day. What he couldn't do with his arm, he could do with his legs. It's kind of like the era that we see now, right?

Jack Moore: Great quarterback.

Michael Gross: But that was me growing up, right? It was that or Bob Avalini of the Bears. So I picked Roger Staba.

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I what it Well, the the reason the reason I bring this up and again, I think it's an age thing, is the impressions thing make on you, but to me and I think the world of Brady as a quarterback. There's some times he lost the Super Bowl. I don't think he was greeting the winning quarterback in the fashion he should have. I don't think he handled losses as well sometimes. There's some criticisms you can have.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: I get plenty of criticism, I'm sure, but I like Brady. And I think Brady is a real positive person and all that. But to my eyes, and this is how, you know, when the barroom discussions I got into one time, I said, here's how I rank it. If it was the World Series, I needed one game, I got Bob Gibson. I got Don, I got, I got I got Drysdale, I you know, somebody like that, Sandy Koufax. I got guys that Shir Schilling, Kurt Schilling, there's guys that like get it done. Madison Baumgartner, that one time in the World Series. But if you said right-handed pitcher, your life depends on I'm going with Bob Gibson. The history's there that in the biggest moments, Bob Gibson was a badass, right? So My thing

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: is, quarterback, here comes the game, your life depends on it. To me, it's Joe Montana. It's always Montana. I my eyes ne I never saw a guy as good in big moments to me. But he got knocked out of four playoff games. The Jim Burt hit. But I was watching the one the other day. The Leonard Marshall hit that knocked him out of the 90s championship game. And then they and then the Giants go on to beat the Bills. And I was in an environment once, I'll just say that, where I was, you know, two feet away from Montana in his 50s, late 50s. And I remember thinking, he's 6'2. They listed him at six. He's 6'2, he's legit 6'2. I'm 5'9 if I'm lucky. So I was right there. I saw him. But I thought, my God, that guy took those hits. Cause I wouldn't say frail, but he's not a big guy. He's not a filled out guy, so to speak. And

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Joe Thizman was one of my favorite guys. And I got a guy in Pro Ball who's a big time instructor. I've done shows with them, people have watched, and I took a kid out. Actually, the kid up top, you can't quite see the picture. I had a kid from eleven doing lessons to pitch with the Rangers, Royals, and Orioles. And I took him out to work with this pro guy in San Diego, pro pitching coach. And we're ch we're coming back the year of the Raiders and Tampa Super Bowl in San Diego. The time that the Barrett got lost in Tijuana c or that Super Bowl. And I forget when

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: we set up the trip that the Super Bowl's coming. So we're in the airport trying to get back to Virginia. And I'm sitting there with a buddy of mine that played basketball in Syracuse. He was on the 87 team that lost Indiana. So he knows sports. And he goes, Hey Jack. I What? He goes, Over there on a payphone, 2003. Over there on the payphone, there's Joey T. And I'm my god, that is Thysman. So we're standing there and Josh who was eleven when I worked with him, he's nineteen, just drafted in baseball. He goes, Who's that? And I go, Theisman. You know the response of a kid that age. He's born in eighty three. He goes, or eighty two. He was like, is he the one that got his leg broken? I go, Yeah, among other things, but yeah, that's him. So he goes, why don't we go talk

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: to him? I said, Well him get off the phone. So he gets off the phone. We're flying San Diego to Vegas to Norfolk. He's flying to Vegas and getting off for a Super Bowl party. Then he's going to go back to work for ESPN. So he gets on the plane with us. You know, it's a hundred seats and there's 40 people on it, maybe. I don't think it was that many. So we're coming on. He signed my ticket. He signed the ticket. He's the nicest guy ever. He became a different person after the leg break. He talks about that a lot. But but again I was looking at him

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: I'm like, I remember one time Too Tall Jones, I remember this film just totally enveloped you, went over top of you, and I'm looking at him and I'm thinking, six nine, Thysman's legit six feet, but he's not a big guy. So we get on the plane

Michael Gross: you

Jack Moore: and and Josh was like, I'm gonna go up and talk to him. I'm like, knock yourself out, I'm following you. He goes up and tells Theizman he's playing pro baseball, he just got started. Theizman loses his mind. Tell me, tell me all about it. When when did you get drafted? Third round. Okay, okay, who you with where where where are you starting the year off? Feismans all excited about him because he's a professional baseball player. And then they pal around for like 10-15 minutes on the plane. But I'm

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: saying the point is, I was at an autograph show, and this was heartwarming to me. I go to get stuff signed by Sonny in Richmond, Virginia. So I'm at the fairgrounds in Richmond. Sonny's supposed to come out at 3 o'clock. When I get there, LT's been since 2 o'clock signing, sitting at a table. Lawrence Taylor. And man, I remember walking up. Now this is about six years. This is when he's making the film any given Sunday. So he's forty years old. He's six or so years out of playing pro football. And I remember walking up to get in the line for the Sunny stuff, and I went, my God, that's Lawrence Taylor. And I remember the story Dan Deerdorf said. His rookie year, they're watching film. They're like, okay, this 56 guy. Yeah, he's kind of thin. He's fast on the edge. Because then we go to play and we're on the field and one of my teammates nudges me. He goes, Hey, dude, what? He goes, Look down there. He goes, shit, that's fifty-six? That's him? Like they had no idea. Because they'd only seen him. So same, same reaction. I'm looking at Taylor and I'm like, my gosh, that's Taylor? Because I saw Thysman. Now I'm seeing Taylor. And I'm like, you know, and again, that wasn't a vicious hit. It

Michael Gross: So.

Jack Moore: was a freak thing when he breaks the leg. But anyway, the bottom line is what I saw that day, I know Jergensen went to Duke. Jergensen's born in 34, Taylor 59. He goes to Carolina. One's from Virginia, one's from North Carolina. And I know with Sonny doing radio, they're they're buds, I'm sure. But Sonny broke the curtain. And I'll never forget this. LT like excuse me to the people in line. He gets up and in and handshakes and pulls Sonny and Frog. And I was like, that's classic. That's classic.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: That's two Hall of Famers. You know, I get it, but it was really neat to see Taylor show that kind of respect to an elder player. And again, I'm sure they're close, they knew each other. But yeah, seeing

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Lawrence Taylor in person really gave me a like, that guy ran a four-six or better in the forty. He threw three hundred-pound offensive linemen around. He ran running backs down from behind. And now I'm seeing the body. And then when I saw Montana and Thizman, I'm like, how did those guys survived those hits. And so when Leonard Marshall does that hit, I'm watching it and it's Pat Summerall, it's John Madden. I'm going back to that magical time. And I'm looking at these guys, I'm like, God, that's when men were playing. You know what I mean? It just looked like I think that's a whole different era. I I don't see it today. They got the big helmets on now and, you know, every time they pick up a fumble, they run down the field and they make a big deal out of it. It just all seems like a different game that I'm not really that excited about anymore. I don't know. I I still watch

Michael Gross: from

Jack Moore: it but

Michael Gross: what you mentioned about the quarterbacks and who, you know, best of all time. And I don't know that he was the best of all time, but I think he took a lot of hits. And we mentioned him already, Kenny Stabler, you know, the snake.

Jack Moore: I love Kenny Staler, yeah.

Michael Gross: You know, I mean, I've watched several documentaries of just, you know, a guy who was kind of Sonny Jurgensen-esque, if you will, in

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: that the extracurricular activities before the game or the night before. But that was a sign

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: of the time, I think, right?

Jack Moore: Different time, right, I agree.

Michael Gross: But Stabler, some of the vicious hits that he had taken, playing the Steelers twice a year. You know, once in the, you know, in the playoffs, well, not twice a year, they would have only played, you know, in the playoffs, but they played them a lot during that time span. But.

Jack Moore: Yeah, as a s as a Sunny fan, not not to be like super defensive, I guess I am in a way, but when he inherited Van Brockland's championship team, he went ten and four. And that's the first year they'd gone fourteen game schedule.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Then they win five games the next two years, he's off to Washington. He pay he plays for McPeak, he plays for Otto Graham, then he has a seven, five, and two with Lombardi. Do you know what his record was under George Allen? What do you think his record was as a starter in the George Allen era?

Michael Gross: Honestly, I couldn't even venture a guess.

Jack Moore: 12 2. 12 2. He only lost two games and 14 starts. But it was back and forth between him and Kelmer. You know, with Sonny's passing in February, one of the first people I heard speak out was Kelmer. I love Billy Kelmer. I didn't as a kid because he was competing with Sonny. Now I found out through the years, they were literally were brothers. They were best friends. When Sonny got his number retired at FedEx, now whatever they call it, Northwest, at the stadium, I went to the game with the C-word as the new name. I didn't want to even say C-word, but Jurgensen told them, When you unveil my number, I I go in as a redskin. I mean you're gonna retire my number. But the guy that unveiled his jersey that was standing beside him was Billy Kelmer. So what a great class act. He's like eighty six now. But you know, it's a different

Michael Gross: That

Jack Moore: era and I think Sonny, I think he did have a lot of off the field. I think some of it might have been from frustration. He was clearly a brilliant man. But when he

Michael Gross: Real.

Jack Moore: was in better settings with better better coaching, better teams, I think if Lombardi had lived, they might have pulled off a Super Bowl or two. I really believe that because they had Larry Brown young. you know, the the defense was get Lombardi would have made them better. And Jergensen led the NFL in passing in 69, the one year he was with Lombardi. And they still had Charlie Taylor, they still had Jerry Smith.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: yeah, I I think they would have been really, really good for a while. They were good under Allen. It's just Allen and Jergensen butted heads and it kind of ruined the end of his career. So

Michael Gross: That was how, you know, as a son, know, young kid, you know, not even a teenager. Again, growing up in Chicago, the second game was always going to be the Cowboys. It just was, right? But my dad,

Jack Moore: yeah. Yeah.

Michael Gross: my dad, RIP, Big time Washington Redskins fan. Big time.

Jack Moore: Really?

Michael Gross: Yeah, yeah. And he would call him the old man. So again, I'm familiar

Jack Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Gross: with Bill Kilmer. Again, it was just kind of cool to root, you're sitting on the couch and I'm Cowboys, he's Redskins. It was cool. It was really cool. while I'm... I'm nowhere, couldn't even be in a 10th of the category you are on the I just remember watching them against the Cowboys specifically. they always played the Cowboys tough. Yeah, it was a war.

Jack Moore: Yeah. There was some there was some historic games between they did. They did. Yeah, and I mean, you know, you growing up where you did, I could probably nowhere begin to appreciate like Packers Bears. I mean, that's as old as it gets, and but there's always a question of consequence. Like the Bears were great for so many decades, then they have their run in the eighties, and then they've been you know, they got back to another Super Bowl. The Packers you know, the original Super Bowl team, then they go through a horrible spell and then they have the Fav era, they have a you know, a a run with Rogers. So the Packers are relevant. You know, the the Packers have become relevant again. And I defin but but again, when I talked about that Leonard Marshall play in Montana coming off the field after the injury, I was I was expressing to a friend the other day, I said, Have ever seen the John Madden eulogy for Pat Summerall? And like, no. I'm like, you gotta watch it. It's the most tear jerking thing you've ever heard. He talks about they they had three break up or they had three times he had to say goodbye. CBS, Fox, and then it he says, And Pat, I love you, goodbye. Wow. I mean, it's like John Madden. And I don't think we'll ever recreate that again. I don't I just think

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: and Pat Sumerall, you know, he'd gone through Betty Ford, he fought alcoholism, he found the Lord, he helped Mickey Mannell said the the last years of his life, I wouldn't have had these last years if it had not been for Pat Summerall. And one of the most interesting things about Summerall I've ever heard was I saw Michael Irvin talking one day. And he said, I had messed up, I had played I my career and I got a gig with Fox, I think it was. He was doing pro football, got in trouble, and he said, I call Pat Summerall. And I said, Pat, I want back in. And he said, You clean? Yeah. Promise? Yeah. Everything good? Yeah. So I tell you what, I'm gonna call Fox.

Michael Gross: So.

Jack Moore: Now, this is a white man of a different era with a younger black man of a different era. You know, I mean, they've, you know, they played in the league, they know each other, but,

Michael Gross: Right.

Jack Moore: you know, and they're raised part of it. But if it's it's an older guy that, you know, it's it's an interesting

Michael Gross: Bye.

Jack Moore: dynamic because he said, this is what he tells him. He said, I tell you what, young man, I'm gonna go to Fox and say, bring me back. And if you screw up, fire me. And Michael Irvin was like, What man does that? He said he put his career on the line for me. He said, if you're telling me you're squared away, I will stand up for you. And I was like, damn, you know. So Michael Irvin is like fighting back tears saying, I love Pat Sumerall. So you saw all these stories of Pat Sumerall. And I just that 80s era where you turned on Summerall and Madden. Now, what I did with the Redskins, I'll be honest, I listened to Frank Sonny and Sam. And I'll show you something real quick. I'm always looking for footballs too. I'm a big football guy. And I find this ball on eBay, and it's a Super Bowl 26 ball when they won 1991 season against the Bills. So I see it.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: And it said the guy goes, Looks like it's signed by Sonny Jergensen. I can't tell. That's Sonny Jergensen HOF, Hall of Fame. Then I'm like, there's something over here. That looks like an F. I look at a

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Frank Herzog autograph, that's what it is. So I'm thinking for all now, Sam Huff's not on there, but Sam Huff, who I loved and Sonny Jurgensen, did radio for several years with Frank Herzog, and then eventually it was Larry Michael. But as a Redskin fan, we all synced up the TV to the radio.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: We had to do whatever we had to do to sync the two up. And that's what we did as Redskin fans is we listened to them. But friend but again, Madden and Summerall, man, that was some great memories. Thanksgiving. And they said and and and Madden said that we spent 23 Thanksgivings together. Twenty-three. And people would say to me, Wasn't that awful to not be able to spend Thanksgiving with your family? He goes, I did spend Thanksgiving with my family. My family and his family were together for Thanksgiving every year. So I don't know. It might just be nostalgia. It might be the time that we kind of grew up in, but I something's been s something's been lost, I think. And I think it's also the rarity. Like with baseball, watching the game of the week with, you know, Tony Kubek and Go Joe Garaggiola and or Vin Scully, that was so special then. And now baseball's on every night. You can get the package and you can watch every game that's on. And I think it's oversaturated and I don't know, it's so commercialized and everything else. I don't know. It just seems like it's something lost.

Michael Gross: Well, and not to shift gears to baseball, but I will because you opened the door there. Again, being from Chicago,

Jack Moore: Mm-hmm.

Michael Gross: two of the most iconic, at least in my eyes, again, because I don't my eyes are very narrow. But Jack Brickhouse calling the Cubs and Harry Carey

Jack Moore: Gosh yeah.

Michael Gross: starting with the White Sox and then going to the Cubs.

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: Amazing, know, and to your point, you know, you go to the NFL and you know, Howard Cosell, how many of us, we always did that, you know, the impersonation. This is Howard Cosell. You know, I mean, it was just amazing.

Jack Moore: He was larger than life.

Michael Gross: And, you know, they brought the sports to America and I think, you know, that helped bridge a lot of gaps, you know, from from different ethnicities to everything.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: To your point, there is a lot

Jack Moore: No, I

Michael Gross: of differences today.

Jack Moore: Well, you know, that is a major point. I liked Cosell. I know Cosell wrote the book where he kind of stepped on Frank Gifford, you know, that Gifford wasn't really good behind the mic and all that, and Gifford took some offense to it. And I think Dan Don Meredith did a really good job of handling him. But I think that it's it was a great dynamic. But anyway, what bothers me about today you referred to as cancel culture and all the rest, when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. A Jewish attorney from New York, Howard Cosell, was there for Jackie Robinson. When Muhammad Ali lost his belt for not going into service during the Vietnam era, the only guy that backed him was Howard Cosell, who had known a lot of prejudice himself. You know, and so so the night, September 5, 1983, it's the night that Daryl Green runs Tony Dorsett down from behind. It's Monday night football. The Redskins are reigning champions. They just beat the Cowboys the year before. They're playing Monday night in RFK. And Alvin Garrett catches a pass and is working his way up the field. And Howard Cosell

Michael Gross: Thank you.

Jack Moore: famously says, look at that little monkey go. And then all hell breaks loose. And I'm thinking,

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: shame on you for thinking that he said that that term, or he said monkey, and you thought it meant race, because there was a documentary done on him. They taught his family was talking about how heartbroken he was, and they pull up a film of Mike Adamley, the guy that goes on to work for NBC Sports, running the ball, white guy.

Michael Gross: Played with the bears.

Jack Moore: Right, exactly.

Michael Gross: Bears.

Jack Moore: 1977 or something, and he's in college, he goes, Look at that little monkey go. And he's talking about Mike Adamley. Then the grandchildren said he called all of us little monkeys. That was his thing, his go-to. So in Cosell's mind, he's saying little guy, little monkey running, and then all hell breaks loose. And that led to his demise on Monday Night Football. And it so pissed me off. I thought Howard Cosell, you think Howard Cosell's a racist? When no one else would

Michael Gross: Yep. Yeah.

Jack Moore: stand up for Jackie Robinson, when no one else stood up for no one for Muhammad Ali. He and Muhammad Ali loved him. And he had a history

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: of standing up for those who weren't stood up for. And because he makes a comment that he made about his grandchildren and a white running back about, you know, half a decade before. And I again I'm thinking like, shame on those who see racism in that. But I get it, I mean,

Michael Gross: Absolutely.

Jack Moore: it's but but that was 1983, and people forget. You know, that's forty plus years ago and that kind of bullshit was going on then. You know, that you know, said the wrong thing, gotta get canceled. But I think they just wanted

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: him out. I think he was a target at that point. But hey, anybody listen to what I'm saying there, do your own research and find out the very part I'm talking about about his history of referring to people moving quickly that were small as monkeys, with his including his grandchildren. And but

Michael Gross: Yeah

Jack Moore: again, if you look at the history of Howard Cosell, like him or not, the guy was way ahead on a lot of progressive era issues and or progressive issues as far as race and ethnicity. He was. He, you know, I loved him. I loved him. But

Michael Gross: Absolutely.

Jack Moore: him and Don Meredith, though, good God. Don Meredith was another one. I dearly love Don Meredith. I mean, he's just. You know, he was and he's an interesting character with the football side because he was one of the toughest guys that ever played and he didn't quite get to the era where they finally turned the corner. It took Stallback to turn the corner. And Craig Morton, who just passed this last year, God bless him, he could never quite get it past a certain point either. And it took Stalback

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: to win the Super Bowl for the for the Cowboys. And he was special. All right. We've been a

Michael Gross: No. I agreed.

Jack Moore: go ahead. So we we've been about

Michael Gross: Nice.

Jack Moore: an hour Yeah, go ahead.

Michael Gross: I agree with you wholeheartedly on all those subjects and appreciate you having me.

Jack Moore: Yeah, all right, so again folks, I I I I meet meet people. Again, we've met through this world. There's a brotherhood that that I've seen develop. of people who are in I think at some level we're all historians. I mean I'm a history major, you know, I got a master's degree in history and I've always loved baseball because if you track American history, it it it it greatly relates. As a matter of fact, when Ken Burns did the special, where he did the whole the whole history of baseball through I think nineteen ninety four when he did the whole series on the history of baseball, he opened the one in the war era with a movie. And it was guys in a Jeep coming up with I think it was a major in in the right seat and he's got a sergeant driving and he comes up on a checkpoint and they start doing American jargon and then and they're wait a minute, can't let you through and he goes, Look, I'm a major in the army He goes, How do I know? And then the guy starts speaking German to him and he goes, What are you doing here? And then he said, How are the Dodgers doing? That was the whole thing of the opening of that. It's like, how are the Dodgers doing? What position do certain guys play? And when they said that, it goes, I guess you're okay. And he goes, Well, thank you very much. Got it. Salutes and then goes on. And Burns' point was that's how ingrained baseball was into even the motion pictures of the World War II era. Like y you

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: could get past a checkpoint if you knew baseball. You you could make it's like what's a Texas League or what you know, what they started asking baseball terminology and then there's like how'd the Dodgers do this year? And I do think that that's

Michael Gross: you

Jack Moore: such a great part of American history. It does it does get tracked with baseball. There there's a history component to baseball. And you know, think to some degree football as well. But but definitely I think that if we're sports fans of the level we are, we are historians. I mean w all that stuff we were talking about, the this on the helmet, that only we would know that. Like we o we're the only ones that care about the evolution of the helmet or how they wore decals or how they painted the helmets and things like that. But that's a part of the nostalgia.

Michael Gross: Agree.

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: Well you got quite a collection there behind you for sure.

Michael Gross: Appreciate it. Yeah, it started off like I said, just some random helmets that turned into those that you see behind me are Super Bowl MVPs.

Jack Moore: Wow. Okay, so I'm looking up there. I'm guessing that's you got a Riggins there and you got Williams and do you do you have the ripping yet?

Michael Gross: yeah, that's over.

Jack Moore: Okay, gotcha.

Michael Gross: I've got actually

Jack Moore: I see it.

Michael Gross: all 60 different MVPs there. of the,

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: what? I shouldn't say 60 MVPs. They're not 60 different MVPs, right? I mean, because you've got

Jack Moore: Yeah, there's some repeats for sure, yeah.

Michael Gross: Brady, Bradshaw, Bartstar, But,

Jack Moore: Montana 13.

Michael Gross: Montana. Eli Manning, multiple winner. But, yeah, definitely have your Redskins. One of the most unique chin straps was finding that Doug Williams chin strap. Because if look back,

Jack Moore: Yes, yes.

Michael Gross: he had And off the top of my head, I can't remember the brand. But they make baseball gloves. The baseball gloves starts with a G. It's going to bother me. But I can picture the branding. Anyway,

Jack Moore: Right.

Michael Gross: that part is to the nth degree, right? The chin strap there and my Bart Starr chin strap. It's about patience. Right? you know, I had either no chin strap on it at all or, you know, a couple of them, you know, place holders, whatever I got with the helmet until I found the exact one. But again, that was the finishing touch on that Doug Williams was to get that chin strap. And that's one of my prouder finds, if you will.

Jack Moore: Yeah, you know, Gibbs had a twelve year run the first time, ninety one to I'm sorry, eighty one to ninety two, and then retired and came back four to seven. And in that first run he had one losing season, and that was eighty eight following the Super Bowl win and the strike shortened eighty seven. And that's when they made the move to go with Williams as a starter and they traded Schrader. I get it. I was a Schrader fan, no doubt. And I've always said Kelvin Bryant probably ended Schrader's career in Washington because when Williams in the first quarter had his fame. So Elway throws to Ricky Natille, first play, touchdown. Then they're driving down again, and Butts makes

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: a great play to stop Elway from scoring again. They kick a field goal, 10-0. Then the Redskins fumble the next kickoff, and the Redskins miraculously, I think it was Anthony Jones, I can't remember if it was Anthony Jones or it was Orr, Terry Orr. Somebody, one of the tight ends, jumps on the fumble and they retain the ball. Then Williams goes on to have this slip. Where he kind of wrenches his knee and falls down, flips the ball out of his hand before anybody touches him. Then the ref said later that that was a give up on the play, the ball's dead. But I remember Dan Deerdorf was losing his mind saying, Well, wait a minute, why is that not a fumble? Okay, we're we're we're concerned with his health, but how about the fumble? So Schrader comes running in.

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: And I remember Al Michael said, well, the past and future quarterback with the Redskins, Schrader, comes in. He still

Michael Gross: you.

Jack Moore: is listed among the guys in their first 24 starts. He was 17 and 7. He has one of the highest winning percentages. So he had the great start in 86, 12 and 4. And he wins some important games in 87, but he's lost the job, I get it. So he comes in, first play, Kelvin Bryant totally whiffs on a block, blind side, sack. So now it's third down

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: and 22. So then at third and 22, Schrader drops back. Everybody for Denver's back in an umbrella coverage as deep as they can get. Here's Kelvin Bryant out the backfield, right between the two and the four, right in his numbers. He drops it. Now, would he have picked up 22 yards? Probably not. But if Schrader had gotten hot, maybe he stays in. Maybe gives, like, okay, hot hand and William. So Williams

Michael Gross: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Moore: now is running around on the sideline, getting his knee warmed up. First play, second quarter, 80 yards to Ricky Sanders. Then in 18 plays, they score five touchdowns. So you know that history. So

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: I've always used the line. I think it's my line. I don't know if anyone else has ever used it. I said, Doug Williams picked the best day of his life to have the best day of his life. And that's what he did. They come back the next year, they're seven and nine. They don't make the playoffs, and then it's on to Rippin. So Rippin kind of works himself into the equation.

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: So as it turned out, we got Jim LaShea out of the deal with Schrader, but I always wondered if Schrader doesn't get sacked and then Kelvin Bryant drops the ball and they pick up a first down. Like what, you know, what what changed is just Schrader? That is Schrader coming and throw f you know, score five touchdowns, and Ricky Smith gains two hundred and four yards, who's pretty much on the blocks the next year and getting rid they're getting rid of him because he just doesn't put it together. But but that was

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: That was a crazy game. When they were down 10-0, you know, as a fan, I'm going through the, my gosh, we're going to get blown. It's the Raiders again. It's going to be the Raiders again. Next thing I know, it's 35 to 10. And I'm like, what the hell just happened? So it was fun to watch. And God bless Doug Williams for doing that. And I will say this: that's another thing about my old man get off the lawn. Go back and watch the film, folks. He's wrist flicking balls 50 yards down the field. Like it's up the it's gone. And Doug Williams threw as tight a spiral online for distance as anyone you'll ever see. He had a great arm. And the Schrader thing, when I

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: was talking to a group of kids and they're giving me all this guys are better. So the guy I talked about, the quarterback guru, is Tom House, who was pitching coach with Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson. He worked with Brady for years and Drew Brees. So once he got into the quarterback stuff, I asked him one day, I said, just like in baseball, when we use the twenty to scouts use a twenty to eighty scale to measure tools. A fifty is an average. I mean, what do they consider an average distance for a throw for a quarterback? And he goes fifty eight yards. It's funny you should ask that, Jack is fifty eight yards. If you can throw the ball fifty eight yards in the air, you're considered an average arm. So I have a film. You people can look it up. It's about halfway into the game. 86 Redskins Cowboys. Redskins win 41 to 14. They blow the Cowboys out that day in RFK. And there's a play where Schrader drops back. He has a guy in his face. I mean, a defensive end storming in on him, and he wrist flicks the ball on his back foot, throws it. When you do the math to where Gary Clark caught the ball, it's 55 yards. And it's a line drive. He throws it 55 yards on a line off his back foot. In a game against

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: the Giants in the pouring rain in 87, he throws a Hail Mary at the end of the half. He's at his own 40. He throws it out of the back of the end zone. He throws it all the way out into the front row of the stadium. You do the math, it's easily 75 yards. So I heard him one time. He was the third overall pick in Major League Draft as a catcher. He washes out as a hitter, comes

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: into the NFL. And but I'm saying he's six foot four, two fifteen, runs a four six forty. So I saw what Doug Williams could do. I saw what Schrader could do. And do you know who set the combine record for the longest throw in the combine history? It's Jeff George.

Michael Gross: I was gonna say it wasn't either of those

Jack Moore: eighty n

Michael Gross: two

Jack Moore: it was eight what but it was but it was Jeff

Michael Gross: 89

Jack Moore: George at eighty nine. Yeah. Now I heard

Michael Gross: Wow.

Jack Moore: I heard Schrader I I I can't find this tape and I know I heard him say it. He was on a talk show that he was doing and somebody said, Jay, just to how far the hell can you throw a football? He goes, Well we were screwing around in practice the other day and a guy challenged me wanted to know and he said I threw at eighty six. I stood on the goal line hit the eight I hit the fourteen on the other end. So I've heard that again, Jeff George was 89. I've heard Elway could hit 85 yards. And when I watch TV, when I watch the guys,

Michael Gross: That doesn't surprise me.

Jack Moore: yeah, Elway, but then then again, you have to look at the baseball end of it. There's a poor man's radar gun in baseball. It's true. If you can throw a baseball 300 feet, 100 yards, you can throw 90. There's no doubt about it. If you can throw, so Justin Verlander, who I had on the fallball team, I had Justin Verlander's Goochel Virginia. We had him on the fallball team. I heard a story from some of his teammates that one day at Old Dominion University in Norfolk, where he went to college, he was talking to some hitters. He went, I can throw the ball farther than you guys can hit it. This was what a guy told me he witnessed. And he said, standing

Michael Gross: Sure. Yeah.

Jack Moore: at or around home plate, he threw it over the center field wall. And that would compute. You know, he was a hundred mile an hour guy. And he could throw the ball 385,

Michael Gross: Sure.

Jack Moore: whatever. So they said that in professional baseball, Schrader would win beer bets. Like, hey, I bet you a six-pack, I can go stand on the mound and throw it over the center field wall. And guys like, no way you can do that. And he would do it. So if you can take a baseball and stand at the mound, 60 feet from home plate and throw it over the center field wall, you're 300 well over 300 plus. And and so

Michael Gross: Yep.

Jack Moore: seeing Schrader play like I did and seeing the throws and having on film him talk. Tossing a ball at least 75 yards in the pouring rain on a on a Hail Mary where he's trying to hit the back of the end zone. I don't know that A B plus wasn't available. I know that sounds crazy to people, but you can look it up. I'm pretty sure Jeff George's number was eighty-nine. And I've

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: never heard anybody really dispute he had the he had the strongest arm that ever played. He was just a you know, kind of a screw up otherwise. But he could throw. I mean, there's no

Michael Gross: Sure.

Jack Moore: question how far he could throw the ball. Yeah. What would you like to say in closing? do would do you want people to reach out to you in any way, as far as what you do? Do you do you do any customized helmets for anybody else? Are you in that kind of space or

Michael Gross: Yeah, I mean, I've done them for friends, you know, and I've

Jack Moore: Okay.

Michael Gross: got, you know, I love talking just like you do about them and having

Jack Moore: Yeah.

Michael Gross: extra resources and people with a similar like, you know, love it.

Jack Moore: Well I'll tell what, people can reach

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: out to me in comments and everything. I'll tell you what, they'll put it up in the comments when we see the show. If if you see somebody you want to catch up with or somebody if you got some questions, anybody wants to know anything about the helmet thing. I'm hoping that somebody will see this and like, hey, I would like to be involved. I'm not in again, you know this from from I do everything personally. I'm not in

Michael Gross: Sure.

Jack Moore: the business. I have met I have met a lot of neat people because there is definitely branches of a tree. I've now met you, then you knew all the people I knew. And I mentioned to a guy the other day, hey, I've I met the guy. Yeah, I Mike. He's a good dude. You know, like he's another helmet

Michael Gross: Thank

Jack Moore: guy. Everybody knows everybody. He knew about you

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: and he's like, yeah, yeah, good dude, good dude. I've done some stuff. Like he's done some stuff with you, probably don't even remember. But but everybody

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: knows everybody. They kind of know. There's been a couple that I've thought, I met a really good guy in New Hampshire and he made a great point one time. He's like, Jack, there's a lot of really bad people in this business. I said, Well, I haven't met you because let me give you example. He goes, I've seen people do a a buttcus helmet, like literally do a buttcus helmet. They got all the specs and they go out and bang it against a tree. Like they'll just bang it up. Like literally do damage to it and then put

Michael Gross: this

Jack Moore: it on eBay and say three thousand dollars, game worn dick buttkus. And somebody's gonna look at that and go, man, look at the battle scars on that. That that looks like the helmet was actually in game. No, he made a helmet and beat it up to make it look like it had been in a game. And there's gonna be some sucker that's gonna spend three grand because he loved Dick Buccus. And I'm like, well, I haven't run across that person yet, but I'm sure it does exist. It hasn't been in the space I've been in, but you know, I hope that people don't get exploited.

Michael Gross: No, for sure, for sure. Jack, I appreciate it.

Jack Moore: All right, brother. Anything else you want to say on the way out? Yeah, go ahead.

Michael Gross: Hey, you know, anytime you'd love to talk sports, I'm in. So it doesn't have to be on your

Jack Moore: Well let's do that.

Michael Gross: podcast.

Jack Moore: sure. no, no, we're we're friends for life now. And I'm buying you a steak and a beer. Yeah, we're we're we're good. I don't know. I'm gonna come I'm gonna

Michael Gross: Hahaha!

Jack Moore: come yeah. 'Cause well, we gotta do some of this other stuff together. But yeah, yeah, yeah. We're friends for life on that. Don't ever worry about that. So y you know, I'm always there for you whenever you need me. so more to consider. Please like and subscribe. I know I'm all over the map. I do politics, I do history. Wrote my master's thesis on the Kennedy assassination. That's probably my greatest hits on here. So if you ever wanna know who it was Oswald, by the way, but You know, do shows on these different things, but I'm very passionate about sports and its history, and I think you can see that. And Mike's a guy from my era, so we saw we saw the game in a different time. When I watch these YouTube replays and I'm looking at games from nineteen eighty five, I'm like, God, I rem I swear to you, brother, I'm I remember where I was on the couch when I was watching that game. Like I'll literally remember like where did I leave my drink beside I still think it's sitting there because and then I'll like, no shit, Jack, forty years passed. Forty years passed since The moment you watch that. And I was

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: I was doing a show the other day. The night Theizman broke his leg, I was sitting with a young lady at Garden Web College in the girls' dorm where you couldn't go into the dorm room. You had to sit in the lobby. So we're watching it. Theizman's legs break, and she goes, my god, you like you've seen a ghost. And I'm like, our our quarterback's done. Who's our quarterback? And she didn't know. I'm in, you know, Bowling Springs, North Carolina, and I'm from DC area and she's not and

Michael Gross: Yeah.

Jack Moore: And I'm devastated and she doesn't know why. But I remember the couch I was sitting on watching it on ABC and November eighteenth, nineteen eighty five, and I remember it like it was yesterday. So all these memories play in my head. And it's always like, what did I have on and where was I sitting when I was watching a game? As strange as it seems. So I can't believe that much time has passed. But God bless you, brother. Stay on and we'll talk a little bit more. Everybody listening again, it's more to consider. Please like our subscriptions have gone up a little bit. I think some of you have been liking the shows that I've been doing with Charles. Keep liking our shows, keep sharing them, and we'll have on other great guests real soon. Take care and God bless.

Michael Gross: Thanks,